[Bromaster5]

Bromaster. Try it. You'll like it. Keep your ICE for road trips. But at-home charging is da bomb. A dryer outlet, 50 amp extension cord and an $80 refurbed charger from Amazon. It takes 5 seconds to plug in at night and unplug in the morning. Every morning your tank has 200-300 miles and it cost $5-10. Being a late adapter is just impractical.

Im aware of this already and have been looking into EV's, used and new..

 

[Bromaster5]

Bromaster. Try it. You'll like it. Keep your ICE for road trips. But at-home charging is da bomb. A dryer outlet, 50 amp extension cord and an $80 refurbed charger from Amazon. It takes 5 seconds to plug in at night and unplug in the morning. Every morning your tank has 200-300 miles and it cost $5-10. Being a late adapter is just impractical.

I drove a golf cart once! Hahhaha

 

[Bromaster5]

No. I meant SIX DOLLARS. Actually $4.95 for 425 miles.
177kWh battery
2.4 mi/kwh
MN Xcel EV at home program $.028/kWh

Another thing to remember, just because something is being incentived/subsidized doesn't mean its cheaper or free. The stated and actual costs can be quite different, someone is paying for it.

Take Uber for example, those cheap fares were paid in advance by investors to gain market share and disrupt the taxi industry. It worked until all the start-up cash got used and then the deal was over for the consumer. Most investors by that point had already pulled out and were onto the next IPO.

 

[rjcarter3]

cool, I'd love to hear more about this EV van right here on this forum!!!

Beware @rjcarter3 @Bromaster5 and a few others on this forum are blatant anti EVs, conspiracy theorists, anti-anything that gets better than 20 mpg, a vocal minority here in this forum. they spout mis-information repeatedly and its worthless to engage with them. looks like @Bromaster5 setup his profile so no one can see his posts, why would someone do that, why is that an option on the forum? Wish these forum members would grow up as occasionally they actually have something useful to say.

What a ridiculous thing to say. It's also completely false. I currently drive an EV to the office on the days that I go in - that being an electric scooter. I would also be open to owning an EV car for around town drives, but the practicality of using them for long distance drives, colder months, heavy duty vehicles, etc is a widely debated topic everywhere.

Are you normally this rude to people who disagree with you about everyday things? Drive whatever you want - I don't care. People on this forum discuss the pros and cons of everything they do with their vans, so I have no idea why I was tagged in this conversation. Grow up.

 

[rjcarter3]

Another thing to remember, just because something is being incentived/subsidized doesn't mean its cheaper or free. The stated and actual costs can be quite different, someone is paying for it.

Take Uber for example, those cheap fares were paid in advance by investors to gain market share and disrupt the taxi industry. It worked until all the start-up cash got used and then the deal was over for the consumer. Most investors by that point had already pulled out and were onto the next IPO.

Also, it' not just how much it costs to get your vehicle refueled it's how fast you can do it. Time is money. I can put ~380 miles of range in my PM no matter how cold it is outside in a couple minute stop. Does that time make a difference if I'm sitting at home? No. Does it matter if I'm on a road trip? Yes.

 

[JohnnyRambles]

I'm still having some trouble with the claimed range of this Brightdrop van. I'd LOVE to have an EV van that can get 400+ miles on a single charge, but according to everything I've read online (Including stats from Brightdrop itself) the max these vans can get on a single charge is around 250 miles. In fact, they hold the Guinness Book World record for longest distance traveled on a single charge by an EV cargo van at 258 miles. So either the OP has completely destroyed the world record on his 5 best charges, or something else is going on here. I'd just like to know why there's such a drastic distance between the two estimates. It just doesn't make sense to me that Brightdrop would be holding back news of performance like this when all other EV companies are constantly overestimating range.

GM’s electric delivery van just set a world record — with me riding shotgun

It was the longest EV delivery trip on a single charge.

www.theverge.com

 

[GaryBIS]

There is a lot of information on the internet ,,, some of it is fact, some of it is opinion, some of it is truth;

View attachment 100538

https://www.texaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-TrueCostofEVs-BennettIsaac.pdf?__hstc=123760149.0b6c4a768d8814345847cae6a32008e7.1693587828998.1698185365265.1698235788581.87&__hssc=123760149.10.1698235788581&__hsfp=2439428725

I truly do not know what to believe. I figure the truth is probably somewhere between the 2 extreme perspectives.

“What’s Up”

Hi RV,
The Texas Public Policy Foundation (who authored your first article) is a group of climate change deniers and fossil fuel fans - I personally would put them as far from trying to get the truth out as its possible to be. They manage to uncover and exaggerate the subsidies that the EV industry gets while conveniently ignoring the billions and billions and billions in subsidies that the fossil fuel industry gets each year - and have for many many decades.

I pay 12 cents per KWH (which is not subsidized for EVs - its the price everybody pays). It takes 80 KWH ($9.60) to fill my EV, and it gets about 300 miles on this. But, I have solar, so my fuel cost for drives within range of home is zero. When on road trips, I'be been paying about 36 cents per KWH, or $30 for a fillup.

All of this stuff fundamentally comes down to whether you believe climate change due to burning fossil fuels is a serious problem or not. If you do, then getting rid of fossil fuel emissions is a must and in order to do a timely transition away from fossil fuels is a must and when you want to change massive industries (like transportation) over to electricity, its going to take subsidies initially to make it happen. If you don't believe in climate change as an urgent problem, then all the emphasis on moving people to EVs is going to look stupid.

Gary

 

[phil]

Reduce the speed to 40 mph carry and carry no payload, he posted a graph somewhere.

The e-Transit gets good range when driven at low speed.

But not very practical

 

[GaryBIS]

Reduce the speed to 40 mph carry and carry no payload, he posted a graph somewhere.

The e-Transit gets good range when driven at low speed.

But not very practical

Its John's chart,
It actually crosses 400 miles at about 50 mph, which is not too horrible.
And, crosses 300 miles at 65 mph.

It would be nice to know where the graph comes from.

Gary

 

[vlouish]

Those of us who are old enough to remember the Arab Oil embargo also remember the plethora of bumper stickers reading "Be Thrifty, Drive 50" and the uniform 55 mph cap on interstates. We also remember driving cross country at 50-55 mph. And we remember having a great time doing so. So driving an EV 50 mph to be able to go further only seems like a loss if you are in a hurry. In which case, at this point in time, an EV for long distance travel is not for you...yet.

I do wonder why they are not offering our Promaster in hybrid or better still, PHEV (for those of us who also sometimes use our vans for short errands). Same engine as the Pacifica. Seems like a no-brainer.

I'm quite excited by what John is doing here. I'm not an early adopter, so I welcome the opportunity to learn from someone who's willing to take the plunge, risk, and reward.

That ZEVO looks like an easy-to-upfit van, with those vertical sides. A few trips to IKEA and you're good to go.

 

[Pierre O]

Those of us who are old enough to remember the Arab Oil embargo also remember the plethora of bumper stickers reading "Be Thrifty, Drive 50" and the uniform 55 mph cap on interstates. We also remember driving cross country at 50-55 mph. And we remember having a great time doing so. So driving an EV 50 mph to be able to go further only seems like a loss if you are in a hurry. In which case, at this point in time, an EV for long distance travel is not for you...yet.

Great point. To us the journey is part of the reward - so most of the time we prefer to take secondary roads and travel at lower speeds. Even for ICE vehicles there is a huge effect of speed on consumption so not being in a hurry has benefits.

 

[rjcarter3]

The Texas Public Policy Foundation (who authored your first article) is a group of climate change deniers
…

All of this stuff fundamentally comes down to whether you believe climate change due to burning fossil fuels is a serious problem or not. If you do, then getting rid of fossil fuel emissions is a must and in order to do a timely transition away from fossil fuels is a must and when you want to change massive industries (like transportation) over to electricity, its going to take subsidies initially to make it happen. If you don't believe in climate change as an urgent problem, then all the emphasis on moving people to EVs is going to look stupid.

I prefer to be called a “climate theocracy heretic”, thank you. Seriously, the name-calling is silly and self-discrediting. It’s just a lazy attempt to end arguments by comparing people who like to ask tough questions to people who deny the holocaust.

No one “denies” that climate change happens. It’s been happening for 4.5 billion years, and it will continue to happen until the sun swallows up Earth. The question is how much influence mankind has over the process.

I remain open to the idea that man has become a major and possibility harmful influence over the process, but I need to see some proof. If alarmists are going to make predictions about 1° C warming over 100 years, a pointless prediction for accountability purposes since everyone standing on it will be dead, then I need to know to the same level of precision exactly how much warming we’re causing and how much is natural variability. In other words, what would be the global mean temperature in 2023 if humans never existed? You don’t have that answer. You’re glossing over that unknown variable while claiming the other one is dire.

I’d also like to see some explanation of why every natural disaster now it seems is caused by humans, or at least is heavily influenced by them. Often these natural disasters are the ecological opposite of the previous disaster, such as droughts and floods. When was the last time you saw a natural disaster that wasn’t in someway attributed to man-made climate change? Natural disasters are also as old as time.

 

[Baxsie]

That van is not going 200 miles at 80mph on that battery pack.

Very optimistic graph.

Just look at the trend line. Where is the 1/V² term? Compare to this graph supposedly for real-world Tesla performance:

So a tiny sleek Tesla S3X can go 200 to 300 miles at 80mph with an 82 KWH battery, and the ZEVO 600 huge boxy van can go just as far with only 160KWH ? I'm not convinced.

Also: range is typically measured at 100% to 0% (reported) battery capacity. In real life, people tend to use 80% to 20% to prolong the life of the battery.

I think it is wonderful that @JohnForde is going electric, but I will be super surprised if they regularly plan a leg of over 100 miles in real life.

As a point of comparison, the Kia EV-6 (we just got one) can be hammered into going 250miles at 70MPH, but since we care about our battery life, like to have some comfortable reserve, and need to account around for the still-nascent PNW fast charging architecture, we plan on ~150 miles between stops at highway speeds.

We absolutely love our electric vehicle. If we charged it from 0% to 100%, that is 77KHW. Our power is $0.06/KWH (~94% non-fossil) so it costs us $4.62. For regular day-to-day operations, we charge it nightly to 60% - that gives us ~150 miles reported range and is in the most gentle area of battery wear.

 

[RV8R]

Hi RV,
The Texas Public Policy Foundation (who authored your first article) is a group of climate change deniers and fossil fuel fans - I personally would put them as far from trying to get the truth out as its possible to be. They manage to uncover and exaggerate the subsidies that the EV industry gets while conveniently ignoring the billions and billions and billions in subsidies that the fossil fuel industry gets each year - and have for many many decades.

I pay 12 cents per KWH (which is not subsidized for EVs - its the price everybody pays). It takes 80 KWH ($9.60) to fill my EV, and it gets about 300 miles on this. But, I have solar, so my fuel cost for drives within range of home is zero. When on road trips, I'be been paying about 36 cents per KWH, or $30 for a fillup.

All of this stuff fundamentally comes down to whether you believe climate change due to burning fossil fuels is a serious problem or not. If you do, then getting rid of fossil fuel emissions is a must and in order to do a timely transition away from fossil fuels is a must and when you want to change massive industries (like transportation) over to electricity, its going to take subsidies initially to make it happen. If you don't believe in climate change as an urgent problem, then all the emphasis on moving people to EVs is going to look stupid.

Gary

Thanks @GaryBIS ,,, I am always interested in & respect your perspectives.

Many of us, & especially with formal education learn these valuable words ,,, “Consider The Source”. I posted The Texas Public Policy Foundation’s article as just reading the foundation’s name told me they would be bias & probably pro oil.

Some information I ween from your post ( please bear in mind I am Canadian & know more about Canada than the USA );

1. There are “Non-Truths” out there in both oil and electricity
2. There are subsidies out there in both oil and electricity
3. The governments alter the laws and collect taxes on both oil and electricity

Your Fundamental;

All of this stuff fundamentally comes down to whether you believe climate change due to burning fossil fuels is a serious problem or not

My belief is ,,, I Don’t Know. At the core of Science are these 3 words “We Don’t Know”. Now I believe in 32’ per second per second ,,, as it has never lied to me. I certainly do not trust those who profit from it ,,, on either side, as I think they have an economic interest to lie & deceive. Further, I believe our species are just “Smart Great Apes”, because that is Science ,,, well sometimes not that smart. I ran into this cartoon recently ,,, it depicts how I see it & it is sad for me ,,, but true to me;

Ever since I have been alive, there has been one looming Earth ending issue or another. It is possible I am callous.

So, as you have inferred & as @JohnForde mentioned, I think it waters down to 2 things for people individually;

1. What is Good for Them Personally
2. What is Good for the planet Earth

I separate the two for obvious reasons & I totally accept a person shall operate in their best interest. I do not fault anyone for buying an EV & in many case scenarios they make great economic sense & might be a joy ,,, no argument from me on that.

What is Good for Earth? Forgive my skepticism it is a product of nurture as I was not born with it. I was born, trusting, & without any Worldly Experiences. I have had enough experiences with the policy & lawmakers to be “non-trusting” & understand they look after themselves first & taxpayers expense. What is good for the Earth is the big polluters stop polluting. China & India have a huge percentage of the world’s population ,,, are they “on board” ,,, are we? How much raw resources like coal is shipped to China & then we all buy these products ,,, as an Apple guy ,,, You know “Designed in California” but built by Foxcomm, I am part of the pollution problem.

“They” started out with the words “Global Warming”, that fell by the wayside & was changed to “Climate Change”. Why? So the words “Climate Change” are not that alarming but the opposite “Climate Not Changing” would be unnatural. As far as I know, the Earth has been in 5 “Snowball Effect” Ice Ages.

So I have no belief. I have thoughts & it is not as easy for me to understand like “g”. It dies make sense to me that polluting the Earth is a bad thing ,,, And we are all polluting the Earth ( even people that do not own a vehicle ).


Human Nature; People like to “feel” like they are making a difference. If a person cares for the Earth more than for themselves, then they might consider going from an ICE vehicle to no vehicle ,,, no vehicle is the real sacrifice ,,, conservation & no van trips is the real self sacrifice. After all “If One” totally believes in the Science of the day it is only for selfish reasons we travel by any sort of energy using vehicle.


Some Perspectives;

If oil & gas industry is subsidized, and those energies are used to create electricity than the electricity is also subsidized by the oil and gas industry

If us chumps, you know gasoline consumers are paying for Road tax at the pump, and EVs are not paying their share of road tax than the EVs are being subsidized.

if your solar generation equipment had tax relief, then your electricity in your Tesla has been subsidized.

if oil and gas industry is subsidized, it is also probably taxed heavily so that the tax money can flow back into the governments hands. Take all that away and all vehicles are run on electricity and there’s still a need for tax guess where that lands eventually.



Gary, I know my posts just details problems & I have no real solutions. The real path to solving this problem is 100% truth & exposure, a formulated path, 100% buy in, & 100% self sacrifice ,,, I basically think that is not going to happen. Many people “preach” about the problem, & nobody know is doing everything they know how to fix it ,,, some buy an EV & believe they are doing their part.

100% buy in is needed & that with a World full of humans that operate out of incentive not morality. Those 2 items above;


Self Interest = Incentive
Save the World = Morality


I believe we all operate in self interest.

 

[rustythorn]

With 400 miles of range on $6 of electricity who wouldn't love it! But my old Promaster with a Colorado camper van now must go. Cheap. View attachment 100490

how were you able to buy it? it is not obvious from their website, however, i've not looked in a few months so maybe things have changed

 

[rustythorn]

No. I meant SIX DOLLARS. Actually $4.95 for 425 miles.
177kWh battery
2.4 mi/kwh
MN Xcel EV at home program $.028/kWh

is 417 watt/mile [err 2.4 mi/kwh] confirmed? i was running with the assumption of 450 watt/mile [aka 2.22 mi/kwh] for either an e-sprinter or e-transit. i would have assumed the brightdrop would be a little less efficient

 

[rustythorn]

do you plan on keeping the roll up rear door? if i converter one of those i would replace that door as it would could interfere with ceiling cabinets not to mention lowering the height of the ceiling while open. i would put in a wall with maybe a hatch access to the garage

 

[rjcarter3]

That van is not going 200 miles at 80mph on that battery pack.

Very optimistic graph.

Just look at the trend line. Where is the 1/V² term? Compare to this graph supposedly for real-world Tesla performance:

So a tiny sleek Tesla S3X can go 200 to 300 miles at 80mph with an 82 KWH battery, and the ZEVO 600 huge boxy van can go just as far with only 160KWH ? I'm not convinced.

Also: range is typically measured at 100% to 0% (reported) battery capacity. In real life, people tend to use 80% to 20% to prolong the life of the battery.

I think it is wonderful that @JohnForde is going electric, but I will be super surprised if they regularly plan a leg of over 100 miles in real life.

As a point of comparison, the Kia EV-6 (we just got one) can be hammered into going 250miles at 70MPH, but since we care about our battery life, like to have some comfortable reserve, and need to account around for the still-nascent PNW fast charging architecture, we plan on ~150 miles between stops at highway speeds.

We absolutely love our electric vehicle. If we charged it from 0% to 100%, that is 77KHW. Our power is $0.06/KWH (~94% non-fossil) so it costs us $4.62. For regular day-to-day operations, we charge it nightly to 60% - that gives us ~150 miles reported range and is in the most gentle area of battery wear.

All good points.

Even if you didn't care about using your car in such a way as to minimize battery degradation and didn't have to worry about charging infrastructure concerns, I would still be more nervous about running down as low as an ICE vehicle. Running out of gas is a lot more manageable of a problem than running out of charge or to find that the only one you can make it to is super busy or only partially working (though maybe your car app can tell you that). A busy gas station will still get you out of there pretty quickly. A busy charging station will not. I can only imagine getting stuck behind some jerk who insists upon charging all the way to 100%.

 

[JohnForde]

That van is not going 200 miles at 80mph on that battery pack.

Very optimistic graph.

Just look at the trend line. Where is the 1/V² term? Compare to this graph supposedly for real-world Tesla performance:

So a tiny sleek Tesla S3X can go 200 to 300 miles at 80mph with an 82 KWH battery, and the ZEVO 600 huge boxy van can go just as far with only 160KWH ? I'm not convinced.

Also: range is typically measured at 100% to 0% (reported) battery capacity. In real life, people tend to use 80% to 20% to prolong the life of the battery.

I think it is wonderful that @JohnForde is going electric, but I will be super surprised if they regularly plan a leg of over 100 miles in real life.

As a point of comparison, the Kia EV-6 (we just got one) can be hammered into going 250miles at 70MPH, but since we care about our battery life, like to have some comfortable reserve, and need to account around for the still-nascent PNW fast charging architecture, we plan on ~150 miles between stops at highway speeds.

We absolutely love our electric vehicle. If we charged it from 0% to 100%, that is 77KHW. Our power is $0.06/KWH (~94% non-fossil) so it costs us $4.62. For regular day-to-day operations, we charge it nightly to 60% - that gives us ~150 miles reported range and is in the most gentle area of battery wear.

I made the graph. It is accurate within a few percentage points at room temperature & no wind.
Brightdrop is underpromising. They must think it is smart marketing psychology. I think it is.
And yes, the ZEVO will get 200 miles at 80 mph. Here its a photo I took of what seemed to be the average consumption at 80 mph. It is 69 Kw. That is 1.16 miles/kWh and a 205 mile range.

 

[JohnForde]

That van is not going 200 miles at 80mph on that battery pack.

Very optimistic graph.

Just look at the trend line. Where is the 1/V² term? Compare to this graph supposedly for real-world Tesla performance:

So a tiny sleek Tesla S3X can go 200 to 300 miles at 80mph with an 82 KWH battery, and the ZEVO 600 huge boxy van can go just as far with only 160KWH ? I'm not convinced.

Also: range is typically measured at 100% to 0% (reported) battery capacity. In real life, people tend to use 80% to 20% to prolong the life of the battery.

I think it is wonderful that @JohnForde is going electric, but I will be super surprised if they regularly plan a leg of over 100 miles in real life.

As a point of comparison, the Kia EV-6 (we just got one) can be hammered into going 250miles at 70MPH, but since we care about our battery life, like to have some comfortable reserve, and need to account around for the still-nascent PNW fast charging architecture, we plan on ~150 miles between stops at highway speeds.

We absolutely love our electric vehicle. If we charged it from 0% to 100%, that is 77KHW. Our power is $0.06/KWH (~94% non-fossil) so it costs us $4.62. For regular day-to-day operations, we charge it nightly to 60% - that gives us ~150 miles reported range and is in the most gentle area of battery wear.

Baxsie, I have not been through the depths of a MN winter with Zevo yet. I received it Aug 25 and was able to drive it beginning Sept 11. But you better be ready to be surprised. I plan on 200 mile legs and always succeed. I have no fear of a 250 mile. I went from Santa Fe to FairPlay CO (300 miles). I still had 60 miles on the gauge but no charger option before Denver. Battery holds 177kWh.

I know the Tesla graph above very well. The model 3LR peaks at ~425 miles like the Zevo. But the sleeker Tesla still get 250 miles at 80 mph while the boxier Zevo only gets 200 miles. These graphs are very aligned.