With 400 miles of range on $6 of electricity who wouldn't love it! But my old Promaster with a Colorado camper van now must go. Cheap.
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JohnForde
That van is not going 200 miles at 80mph on that battery pack.
Very optimistic graph.
Just look at the trend line. Where is the 1/V² term? Compare to this graph supposedly for real-world Tesla performance:
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So a tiny sleek Tesla S3X can go 200 to 300 miles at 80mph with an 82 KWH battery, and the ZEVO 600 huge boxy van can go just as far with only 160KWH ? I'm not convinced.
Also: range is typically measured at 100% to 0% (reported) battery capacity. In real life, people tend to use 80% to 20% to prolong the life of the battery.
I think it is wonderful that @JohnForde is going electric, but I will be super surprised if they regularly plan a leg of over 100 miles in real life.
As a point of comparison, the Kia EV-6 (we just got one) can be hammered into going 250miles at 70MPH, but since we care about our battery life, like to have some comfortable reserve, and need to account around for the still-nascent PNW fast charging architecture, we plan on ~150 miles between stops at highway speeds.
We absolutely love our electric vehicle. If we charged it from 0% to 100%, that is 77KHW. Our power is $0.06/KWH (~94% non-fossil) so it costs us $4.62. For regular day-to-day operations, we charge it nightly to 60% - that gives us ~150 miles reported range and is in the most gentle area of battery wear.
Very optimistic graph.
Just look at the trend line. Where is the 1/V² term? Compare to this graph supposedly for real-world Tesla performance:
So a tiny sleek Tesla S3X can go 200 to 300 miles at 80mph with an 82 KWH battery, and the ZEVO 600 huge boxy van can go just as far with only 160KWH ? I'm not convinced.
Also: range is typically measured at 100% to 0% (reported) battery capacity. In real life, people tend to use 80% to 20% to prolong the life of the battery.
I think it is wonderful that @JohnForde is going electric, but I will be super surprised if they regularly plan a leg of over 100 miles in real life.
As a point of comparison, the Kia EV-6 (we just got one) can be hammered into going 250miles at 70MPH, but since we care about our battery life, like to have some comfortable reserve, and need to account around for the still-nascent PNW fast charging architecture, we plan on ~150 miles between stops at highway speeds.
We absolutely love our electric vehicle. If we charged it from 0% to 100%, that is 77KHW. Our power is $0.06/KWH (~94% non-fossil) so it costs us $4.62. For regular day-to-day operations, we charge it nightly to 60% - that gives us ~150 miles reported range and is in the most gentle area of battery wear.
Awesome !
I have imagined an inflatable tail cone. Maybe something constructed like a stand-up paddleboard, windsurfing inflatable kite, or rubber raft construction. Deflate it and it could push out of the way . . . or maybe swing up and double as an awning ?
The universal code word for thermodynamic energy
I wonder if the BrightDrop battery will allow 800v charging? In theory, you could charge at up to 350KW at the right DC Fast Charger.
This article seems to say that the Hummer (which uses the same pack) might be able to reconfigure at 800v:
GM reveals more technical details of its Ultium battery packs - Charged EVs
GM has big plans to release as many as 30 new EV models by 2025—the company claims that, by 2035, its only ICE vehicles will be heavy-duty trucks. The new Ultium battery system is at the heart of GM’s electrification strategy. GM says the Ultium system delivers a pack-level cost close to the...
chargedevs.com
Eeek ! I hope you are able to avoid any danger.
On the other hand, some EVs allow you to survive a power outage by running on their battery pack. Although, I am not sure how useful it would be to have home power at the expense of a dead EV :-(
Here is a video talking about a Ford Lightning backup setup:
That is a nightmare . . . . Ms. Baxsie, is that you ?
Typical usage pattern is to charge your EV every evening to some set amount 60% ~ 90% so generally our EV is more "filled up" than a given ICE vehicle, which I only try to keep above 1/4 tank.
If we have an extended outage here, we might be forced to charge the EV from the propane generator. That is neither cheap nor environmentally kind :-(
Back to the @JohnForde's original topic, here is Out of Spec Review's video on the Bright Drop:
@JohnForde I'm interested too. Thanks for the update.
My first concern, given our penchant for camping in cold weather, is house heat. I suspect that I would go with propane as my heat source.
Kinda goes against the whole electric bit :-(
On the other hand, energy conversion of propane to heat (in a well-designed device) is likely more efficient than gasoline to work. Neither is going to approach the electricity to work efficiencies though.
My first concern, given our penchant for camping in cold weather, is house heat. I suspect that I would go with propane as my heat source.
Kinda goes against the whole electric bit :-(
On the other hand, energy conversion of propane to heat (in a well-designed device) is likely more efficient than gasoline to work. Neither is going to approach the electricity to work efficiencies though.
I love the dog under the chair! You might consider a footrest ala barber chair for long trips. Having the legs dangle is not super comfortable.
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This place looks appropriate: https://www.irv2.com/forums/f298/
@keeponvaning I'm a little surprised that Vertical Scope does not have http://electriccampervanforum.com/ . Maybe if you suggest it they will double your pay ! Or maybe carve an electric camper sub-forum here? Downside: not all electric camper vans would be ProMaster. Upside: most of making a camper van is platform agnostic.
Well, it IS called the "Lithosphere"
I do agree with @CarKeys about fire departments being a less-than-ideal application of EV. Lots of standby. Rural trucks might be called long distances. They will probably (and rightly) stay ICE for some time. I'm sure there will be some fire trucks in dense cities switched over to EV. EV is not going to take over every ICE application. Farm tractor ? ICE. Backup generator ? ironically, ICE. Long haul freight trains? ICE.
However, the last-mile delivery fleets that @GaryBIS cited are the perfect candidates:
- much stop and go (makes use of regen)
- predictable usage schedule
- typically a limited area of operation
- lower average speed
- parked every night for low-cost charging
I once read an article when the Prius was young that was lamenting that the Prius can only save so much because an ICE-only car that size only burns so much gas. The author pointed out that the fleets of step vans burn a huge amount of gas. He had some numbers but it was something along the lines of "it would take (some large number) of Prius vehicles to make up for converting one single busy UPS step van."
In the end, economics will dictate the direction. If gas (and therefore the ICE vehicle operation) continues to increase in cost, and EV continue to become more cost-effective then "average joe" folks will start buying more EVs.
There are batteries on the horizon that may double the current range of vehicles. That is going to open up EV for a lot of people.
The "away from home" charging infrastructure has a long way to go -- but hey, the string of gas stations that were Route 66 wasn't built in a day either. It will come.
@RV8R Posted :
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Here in the PNW, for me:
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So ours is more like:
I get that some places still burn coal or NG to get electricity. Nuclear + wind + solar is the end answer . . . it will take time and perhaps desperation to make the change.
Here in the PNW, for me:
So ours is more like:
dead salmon ==> hydropower ==> wires ==> my garage
I get that some places still burn coal or NG to get electricity. Nuclear + wind + solar is the end answer . . . it will take time and perhaps desperation to make the change.
:-(
It is like the contractor telling you they will be finished in 2 weeks. Close enough you accept it, but far enough away that you do not remember when two weeks later they say it is two weeks out.
Ya, for all but the enthusiast early adopters, there will be a delay until the math works out better.
When it becomes cheaper, for the same performance (including range and charging infrastructure) people will make the change.
I will research tat and get back to you. I should be able to get it all done in two weeks.
As @GaryBIS noted, the super-fast 0-60 times are more about that being easy to do in electric car design, rather than that being the end goal.
First off, do not think of an EV as a car. Think of it as a big-*ssed battery pack that allows you to come along for the ride.
That fat-bottomed battery pack is the limiting factor on EVs. There has been a ton of engineering, development, and research put into making that battery pack store copious amounts of energy and charge quickly while staying relatively cool. The side effect is that you end up with a wonderful electricity source that has tiny resistance. Think of the kind of currents you could get with 100 car batteries . . . that will get you in the right frame of mind for what is available instantly from a modern EV battery pack.
So now the electric motor. You need to pick a motor that can create enough torque at highway speeds to execute a reasonable pass. Remember how that battery is heavy? So the motor needs to be able to produce enough torque to accelerate that massive battery. EV motors also need to be very efficient - heat is wasting the precious juice that the dearly priced battery is holding.
Here is where the blistering 0-60 times for family SUVs come in. All you need to do is short this near-perfect battery pack to that near-perfect motor and you are off like a scalded cat.
In fact, the designers must intentionally design in traction control so the EV does not burn rubber off of every stop sign. Or if you have the right car, maybe you can disable traction control and drift, do burnouts, or maybe a quick sub-12s drag race.
Woah, sorry, I kinda drifted off there for a bit.
The upshot is, that you pretty much get great 0-60 times for free in a modern EV. And if you are a car geek, that can be a selling point. And I disagree with you, a 4-sec EV still has lower long-term environmental penalty than a poky ICE Camry
As @GaryBIS said, EVs give instant full torque at 0 RPM. An ICE has to get a lot of RPM before it has a lot of torque - that takes a lot of time - hence crap 0-60 times even for hot rods.
The real question is: Why does it take a "supercar" ICE vehicle to get great 0-60 times?
Peace.
Ha! Many of the power companies around here have cheap (in the $0.06/kWh range) power, but they thwart DC Fast Chargers with something called a Demand Charge:
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So even though the electricity is only 6¢, if you for instance owned a charging station that had 4x 350 KW DC fast chargers, lets's say each one draws 400 KW at full tilt. If 4 cars charged at the same time just once in any given month then your peak demand would be 1600KW. The demand charge for that month would be 1600*$12.23 = $19,568 (or only %13,040 in the summer).That is on top of the actual energy you use.
Kind of an anti-incentive on the way to a better fast charging network.
So even though the electricity is only 6¢, if you for instance owned a charging station that had 4x 350 KW DC fast chargers, lets's say each one draws 400 KW at full tilt. If 4 cars charged at the same time just once in any given month then your peak demand would be 1600KW. The demand charge for that month would be 1600*$12.23 = $19,568 (or only %13,040 in the summer).That is on top of the actual energy you use.
Kind of an anti-incentive on the way to a better fast charging network.
Long before the current governor, California (and the EPA) have done so much to push automakers to clean up their act and make better vehicles. Sometimes painful (mid-70s smog pump hose monsters were horrible), but in the long run the California regulations have really pushed the industry in the correct direction.
Take a look at the amazing electric custom hot rods at SEMA:
Times they are a changing.
Right now, probably so.
Arguably, even after the introduction of the Model T, ICE vehicles were a luxury. They are still a luxury to some significant part of the world population, and even in the "rich" US, we have population segments that can't afford a car at all - ICE or EV.
Current ICE cars go from cheap to insane. EVs are generally more expensive, they generally require home chargers to be economically effective. This, by extension, require homes and that is not a given in today's world.
Additionally, the public charging infrastructure is not there yet. We are hugely behind here in Eastern Washington compared to California and even Western Washington.
So, yes, just like when ICE vehicles came out, EV early adopters will tend to be willing to spend more on the new technology vehicle.
Eventually, ICE cars, trucks, and tractors replaced all their horse powered predecessors. It was not necessarily because people became fanboys if the new tech (although there were certainly some), it was simply because the gasoline versions were cheaper.
Economics will eventually be what powers the change to widespread EV adoption. Some people will jump on EV at the first chance, some people will hang onto ICE to their last.
As EV matures, becomes cheaper and approaches the same ease of use as ICE, the largest number of consumers will choose the cheaper route and get an EV.
Yes, governments will likely tilt the scales in the direction that aligns with whatever the current policy is.
For me, it is fun seeing the wave coming and to enjoy the ride.
Concerning solar, as lucky as I am here to have cheap hydropower, that same cheap electricity makes solar economically unfeasable. Two different times I have seriously looked into installing solar, an the math just doesn't work. For instance, the interest on the money needed to make about 1/4 of our power was more than the entire electric bill. On the other hand, in the sunnier southwest with it's more expensive power, solar is everywhere.
Like it or not, economics is what will drive the change.
Also, @RV8R, what is with the triple commas?
We have only had our EV-6 for a little less than a month. We love it.
And . . . range anxiety is still a thing. Not as bad as the first long-distance trip. But still there.
On one side of the balance is passing the gas signs and not caring what the price is. On the other side of the balance, you can pass 20 gas stations before there is one CCS fast charger.
Not everyone is going to make the leap right now. Perhaps better that they do not. Let's check back in 10 or 20 years. This is a long slow on-ramp.
@RV8R LOLs I can believe I asked you the exact same question. I'm an idiot that way,,, and thank you for reminding me. Peace.
And . . . range anxiety is still a thing. Not as bad as the first long-distance trip. But still there.
On one side of the balance is passing the gas signs and not caring what the price is. On the other side of the balance, you can pass 20 gas stations before there is one CCS fast charger.
Not everyone is going to make the leap right now. Perhaps better that they do not. Let's check back in 10 or 20 years. This is a long slow on-ramp.
@RV8R LOLs I can believe I asked you the exact same question. I'm an idiot that way,,, and thank you for reminding me. Peace.
That sounds pretty cool. I'd love to see how you come up with something.
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