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MYTH: It’s OK to insulate the areas underneath all those black plastic triangles running along either side if the floor inside the van.

NO, it isn’t. The areas under the holes covered by the black triangles are called rocker panels. Some claim the holes are meant to drain moisture from inside the van. That may be another myth. But even if that was true, water can also enter the rockers through body gaps in wheel wells (etc) and around the fasteners holding the black plastic trim panels on the outside. Insulation can catch and hold water preventing it from evaporating or draining freely. That's a recipe for mould. Plus, most of the rocker surfaces are below floor level where insulation is pointless. Insulate over top of the black triangle holes, if you wish, but not inside them.
BS….Insulate wherever you can. Those areas are not totally below the floor. Of course if you like cold floors let it go.
 
Craven, I can tell you from personal experience that you don't want to insulate that area. I did. A year later I read about this issue and found my insulation there was completely soaked and full of dirt too. I pulled it all out and watched the water drain out. I then carefully cleaned those cavities (gross mess!) and insulated above.

We now have far less moisture in our van and we're just as warm or warmer. We spend most of the winter months snow skiing out of our van.
 
Discussion starter · #65 ·
💯

Then add the “massive” thermal bridge of the van’s metal structure & it becomes even clearer;

Red = Van Metal = Thermal Bridge;

View attachment 105962
It took me a second to decipher @MsNomer's drawing. ;) It's a cross-section of the van with the little yellow square representing a rocker panel on one side. It illustrates that 3 of its 4 sides are under floor level. And yes, there is a lot of thermal bridging through all the metal in the area. Insulating inside the rockers would not interupt that. But insulating over top of the black triangles would help. That said, it's likely a fairly low priority unless you plan on winter camping.
 
Ever notice how some mistaken ideas just won't die? They take on an air of truth simply by being repeated over and over on the internet (YouTube, etc). Recognizing and disregarding these myths will save you time and money. Here are a few to get started:
  1. Sheet-foam insulation (Poly-iso, XPS, etc) under a plywood floor will get crushed. NO, and there is a ton of real-world experience and published material specs refuting that notion. Think snowshoes and splatchers. And for the same reason, the floor valleys do NOT have to be filled. XPS is preferred for floors since it does not absorb water; poly-iso for walls and ceiling because it withstands higher temperatures. Hydrophobic batting (Thinsulate, Havelock wool, etc) works just as well on walls and ceiling.
  2. Sound deadening mat (Kilmat, Noico, etc) is needed on surfaces that will also be insulated. NO, it isn't. Sure, it makes a noticeable difference before insulation, but it becomes redundant afterwards. Sound deadening mat reduces noise by dampening sheet-metal vibration. Insulation does the same thing when attached to sheet-metal surfaces.
  3. Framing out the walls and ceiling with wood is necessary. NO, it isn't. It reduces valuable interior space. Embrace the curves instead. Finish walls and cabinets can be attached directly to the van's ribs and channels. Select finish wall materials flexible enough to conform to the slight wall and ceiling curves.
  4. Levelling the whole van before beginning the conversion is necessary. NO, unlike a house, the van will not stay level during the conversion process, or afterwards. Instead, use the van’s floor as your reference plane and square everything to it (cabinets, etc). Likewise, suspension alterations to compensate for the van's original rake, i.e., the back being higher than the front, should NOT be undertaken before the conversion is finished, if at all. Added weight from conversion materials and equipment will reduce the rake. Plus, a perfectly level van will only be level on perfectly level camp sites, which are rare.
  5. A Promaster can be transformed into an off-road beast with all the agility of a 4x4. NO, but with realistic expectations, good AT tires, and a cautious, skilful driver, a Promaster is still able to negotiate some pretty rough roads. Also be aware that some forum members have posted having problems with suspension lifts.
  6. Buying and converting a diesel Promaster is a good idea. NO, it's most likely asking for trouble. The diesel version was only produced in limited numbers from 2014 to 2017 before it was discontinued. Its European engine and transmission have never been used in another North American vehicle before or since. Consequently, parts and knowledgeable mechanics are increasingly hard to find. Search this forum to learn more. The gas Promaster is just the opposite. Its engine and transmission are found in many other North American vehicles, most notably the ubiquitous Chrysler/Dodge minivan.
EDIT: reformatted based on comments.
Oh this comment is going to be extremely popular......

The Myth: it is OK to mount your electrical components on combustible materials such as carpet, plywood or any combustible material for that matter.

RV manufacturers have been doing it for years...my uncle Rufus has had 30 RV's in the last 50 years and he hasn't had a fire.....some or actually a whole lot of the DIY Utube DIY stars say it is OK.

You might also ask: Who is elJefe?? I might answer: the modicum of Common Sense

You might also ask why, in your home, there are common sense codes or No Certificate of Occupancy. You and your loved Ones will be sleeping in your van/vessel. Common Sense?
 
Oh this comment is going to be extremely popular......

The Myth: it is OK to mount your electrical components on combustible materials such as carpet, plywood or any combustible material for that matter.

RV manufacturers have been doing it for years...my uncle Rufus has had 30 RV's in the last 50 years and he hasn't had a fire.....some or actually a whole lot of the DIY Utube DIY stars say it is OK.

You might also ask: Who is elJefe?? I might answer: the modicum of Common Sense

You might also ask why, in your home, there are common sense codes or No Certificate of Occupancy. You and your loved Ones will be sleeping in your van/vessel. Common Sense?
I don't know where you live but here residential load panels are mounted on plywood, outlet and switch boxes are nailed to spruce studs, and everything is connected with loomex stapled to the studs. All as allowed or required by code...
 
Discussion starter · #68 ·
Oh this comment is going to be extremely popular......

The Myth: it is OK to mount your electrical components on combustible materials such as carpet, plywood or any combustible material for that matter.

RV manufacturers have been doing it for years...my uncle Rufus has had 30 RV's in the last 50 years and he hasn't had a fire.....some or actually a whole lot of the DIY Utube DIY stars say it is OK.

You might also ask: Who is elJefe?? I might answer: the modicum of Common Sense

You might also ask why, in your home, there are common sense codes or No Certificate of Occupancy. You and your loved Ones will be sleeping in your van/vessel. Common Sense?
Yep, a lot of it is just common sense, like not mounting potential fire hazards on carpet. But, in a van the size of a matchbox, electrical components are always going to be quite close to combustibles, just as they are in a house. DYI'ers new to electrical should familiarize themselves with best practices and exercise common sense. And we should all have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers.
 
I don't know where you live but here residential load panels are mounted on plywood, outlet and switch boxes are nailed to spruce studs, and everything is connected with loomex stapled to the studs. All as allowed or required by code...
mon Dieu;

Image




I look at The Band & think we are all getting older 😳.


To be fair ,,, I believe @el Jefe Was mostly suggesting of DC.

In “Commercial Electrical Rooms” do you see a “step up” in requirements ( fire resistant treated materials ), etc?

Residential Electrical ,,, mostly 120vac & 240vac - Yes ?

This video shows clearly @ 1:15 timeframe in the difference between AC vs DC ,,, Made for effect I am sure - but it gets the point across to non-EEs;


In the DIYer Van World - some internet or youtube ideas that start & might be “ok” per the original idea gets ramped up into some extreme design that might cause pause ( cite 12 solar panels on a Promaster roof ) ,,, wonder what the voltage is of that array. It can quickly become as @el Jefe wrote & I refer to as “The Wild West” mentality. We don’t need no stinking permits ,,, or common sense. Add in the “Internet” without any experience or education in an area & it becomes a blind following of monkey see - monkey do.

I truly have mixed feelings of regulations & government control. It is usually just a few bad apples ( bad behaviors ) that ruin the “thing” for the rest of us. Reference dog owners not cleaning up after their dogs, or Walmart Boondocks leaving their garbage at their asphalt campsite ,,, stuff like that.
 
I don't know where you live but here residential load panels are mounted on plywood, outlet and switch boxes are nailed to spruce studs, and everything is connected with loomex stapled to the studs. All as allowed or required by code...
In a metal enclosure.
 
mon Dieu;

View attachment 106047



I look at The Band & think we are all getting older 😳.


To be fair ,,, I believe @el Jefe Was mostly suggesting of DC.

In “Commercial Electrical Rooms” do you see a “step up” in requirements ( fire resistant treated materials ), etc?

Residential Electrical ,,, mostly 120vac & 240vac - Yes ?

This video shows clearly @ 1:15 timeframe in the difference between AC vs DC ,,, Made for effect I am sure - but it gets the point across to non-EEs;


In the DIYer Van World - some internet or youtube ideas that start & might be “ok” per the original idea gets ramped up into some extreme design that might cause pause ( cite 12 solar panels on a Promaster roof ) ,,, wonder what the voltage is of that array. It can quickly become as @el Jefe wrote & I refer to as “The Wild West” mentality. We don’t need no stinking permits ,,, or common sense. Add in the “Internet” without any experience or education in an area & it becomes a blind following of monkey see - monkey do.

I truly have mixed feelings of regulations & government control. It is usually just a few bad apples ( bad behaviors ) that ruin the “thing” for the rest of us. Reference dog owners not cleaning up after their dogs, or Walmart Boondocks leaving their garbage at their asphalt campsite ,,, stuff like that.
Good video. Big difference between DC and AC when it comes to breakers and switches. I'm gonna bookmark that one.
 
Or flame resistant plastic. Same as the inverter that I recklessly bolted to a piece of plywood 😉.
You have a point. Inverters may be the exception to the rule but it is just to easy to mount everything on an aluminum or stainless sheet with standoffs if you are mounting the panel over combustibles.
 
The floor foam getting crushed was super hard for me to believe. Ended up not putting supports, only foam and plywood. Zero issues, super strong
Thanks for the note. Already put sound deadeners in the valleys beneath the subfloor and dont want to mess with framing the insulation. Did you try and offset where the seams are or did it not make a difference. And how did you attach xps to metal floor, liquid nails?

Appreciate the help
 
I don't know where you live but here residential load panels are mounted on plywood, outlet and switch boxes are nailed to spruce studs, and everything is connected with loomex stapled to the studs. All as allowed or required by code...
I don't disagree, but I also recognize the challenge. When you put the specs:
  • Temperature resistant over the automotive temp range ~ ( - 40 C ) to + 70 C
  • Non conductive
  • Maintains mechanical strength and screw pull out strength over the temp range
  • Does not become brittle when cold
  • Meets California directives / requirements
  • Can be drilled into without special dust control measures to keep employees safe
  • Fire resistant
  • Thermal expansion and contraction will not cause issues with the items mounted to it.

There just are not all that many materials on the list.

It eliminates pretty much all polymer composites including the fire rated ones, and most metals.

All of the machine shops that I visited locally would not machine glass filled polymers due to glass dust exposure issues so that took those off the list.

I had not planned to use wood composites, but what it narrowed down to for me was:

  • Starting with a high end baltic birch that is used to build fire rated doors
  • Coatings
  • Careful assembly methods and components selection.

I am not completely happy but I have not found an alternative.
 
I don't know where you live but here residential load panels are mounted on plywood, outlet and switch boxes are nailed to spruce studs, and everything is connected with loomex stapled to the studs. All as allowed or required by code...
On my last van project I mounted the electrical components on metal plate because the inverter instructions recommended it. It was easy to make this adjustment from wood backing, but you have to be careful when connecting all the wires so it doesn't spark when accidentally touching the metal plate. So far, I'm not convinced the metal plate was necessary.
Image
 
Ever notice how some mistaken ideas just won't die? They take on an air of truth simply by being repeated over and over on the internet (YouTube, etc). Recognizing and disregarding these myths will save you time and money. Here are a few to get started:
  1. Sheet-foam insulation (Poly-iso, XPS, etc) under a plywood floor will get crushed. NO, and there is a ton of real-world experience and published material specs refuting that notion. Think snowshoes and splatchers. And for the same reason, the floor valleys do NOT have to be filled. XPS is preferred for floors since it does not absorb water; poly-iso for walls and ceiling because it withstands higher temperatures. Hydrophobic batting (Thinsulate, Havelock wool, etc) works just as well on walls and ceiling.
  2. Sound deadening mat (Kilmat, Noico, etc) is needed on surfaces that will also be insulated. NO, it isn't. Sure, it makes a noticeable difference before insulation, but it becomes redundant afterwards. Sound deadening mat reduces noise by dampening sheet-metal vibration. Insulation does the same thing when attached to sheet-metal surfaces.
  3. Framing out the walls and ceiling with wood is necessary. NO, it isn't. It reduces valuable interior space. Embrace the curves instead. Finish walls and cabinets can be attached directly to the van's ribs and channels. Select finish wall materials flexible enough to conform to the slight wall and ceiling curves.
  4. Levelling the whole van before beginning the conversion is necessary. NO, unlike a house, the van will not stay level during the conversion process, or afterwards. Instead, use the van’s floor as your reference plane and square everything to it (cabinets, etc). Likewise, suspension alterations to compensate for the van's original rake, i.e., the back being higher than the front, should NOT be undertaken before the conversion is finished, if at all. Added weight from conversion materials and equipment will reduce the rake. Plus, a perfectly level van will only be level on perfectly level camp sites, which are rare.
  5. A Promaster can be transformed into an off-road beast with all the agility of a 4x4. NO, but with realistic expectations, good AT tires, and a cautious, skilful driver, a Promaster is still able to negotiate some pretty rough roads. Also be aware that some forum members have posted having problems with suspension lifts.
  6. Buying and converting a diesel Promaster is a good idea. NO, it's most likely asking for trouble. The diesel version was only produced in limited numbers from 2014 to 2017 before it was discontinued. Its European engine and transmission have never been used in another North American vehicle before or since. Consequently, parts and knowledgeable mechanics are increasingly hard to find. Search this forum to learn more. The gas Promaster is just the opposite. Its engine and transmission are found in many other North American vehicles, most notably the ubiquitous Chrysler/Dodge minivan.
EDIT: reformatted based on comments.
How do you attached directly to the van's thin ribs and channels so they hold up strong in any situation.
 
Discussion starter · #79 ·
I used sheet metal screws on my 2014 PM that has been rattled around on a lot of backroads.

I've replaced a handful of the screws with the next size up where they worked loose.

To me, it does not seem worth the work doing rivnuts.

Gary
 
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