I have read quite a few insulation post on the forum and none speak to Havelock wool. Has anyone used it??? Is it worth the money over ridge foam. Thoughts???
Havelock Wool insulation. Is it worth it???
Caterwaller
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Technical data on ASTM tests: Batt Insulation | Wool Insulation Products | Havelock Wool and https://havelockwool.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Havelock-data-sheet-10.pdf.
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Thanks for your well thought out reply. This is my first build, and there are so many things to consider. I am trying my best to collect info from others and reading, as to not re-invent the wheel.
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Thanks Little Mother
Last time I looked @ Havelock Wool they did not have this data sheet or I missed it (2018), so this is an improvement from the many months I looked at this. Even when professionals are reading these reported material qualities they must separate objectivity & subjectivity from well crafted documents to separate the wheat from the chaff (What did Joe Friday say “Just the facts ma’am”
So hear is my criticism of that data sheet from a cursory review;
Manages Moisture; They do not state the water absorption amount, but “spin” the fact that it absorbs water & state that it has a “release” ability. Then they state “wool” will not support mold growth (But they fail to caution that particulates that can be mold food could be trapped within the system.). IMO fact that wool can absorb water makes it a poor insulation material choice for a van (great for a sweater or other cloths or similar application). Mold needs 3 things to develop; moisture, food, spores. Moisture absorption is the main reason I passed on wool in my van.
Absorbs Sound; A statement that this loose is meaningless.
@GaryBIS did water absorption tests on insulation products (not wool - no point really), & posted his findngs. I used high load XPS on my floor over Polyiso, & Gary’s test result pointed to one of the reasons why I choose the XPS (IMO it is the better product for the floor where I believe Polyiso is better in walls & ceilings).
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Hi Caterwaller
You are very welcome. I understand, trying to separate facts from opinions with regards to Building Science.
For what it is worth, here are the very basics of the “Van Envelope”;
#1 big issue to overcome is our van metal skin is an air vapour barrier on the cold side of the build envelope (this is bad, & everything we do is to overcome this bad thing). I would not get over concerned about this, but educate yourself to build the best you can for your intended use. It really is like picking your poison as there is no clear solution & the “cold side vapour barrier“ is managed with all of these insulation methods & material choice.
A good thread to read there is this one;
The Van Build Envelope - Design
Hello DIYers Due to a rather large topic & one of many opinions, I have started this thread in hopes to create logical conversations, sharing ideas, & amicable debate concerning the Van Build Envelope
www.promasterforum.com
Wool is crossed off the list for me because it absorbs water ! I can not state how important this is. I believe wool has many great things about it, but not in a van.
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LOL - Havelock is treated with a small amount of boric acid that repels insects.Found some moths in the van last night and laughed contemplating how we're glad we didn’t insulate with wool.
Wayfarer Vans uses wool insulation and have been for a couple of years. They apply it as bats behind wall and ceiling panels. No complaints from their customers that I've found, and I have nothing to complain about.
I did use Thinsulate to insulate the area over the cab and the passenger side sliding door simply because I couldn't source a small amount of wool quickly (this was a couple of months ago).
I did use Thinsulate to insulate the area over the cab and the passenger side sliding door simply because I couldn't source a small amount of wool quickly (this was a couple of months ago).
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Yes, wool can absorb water but it also adsorbs water back into the atmosphere. The wool cuticle is hydrophobic.
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If you think about it, the only time water is a legitimate concern is if you have actual water getting into the van, via a leak or driving through a flood. In that case, it won't really matter what kind of insulation you have, it's going to take forever for that water to dry up from in-between your walls. You're gonna get mold somewhere.
I think the logic behind most people using a rigid foam (at least for me) is that space is limited in a van and you can get more R value from an inch thick of rigid foam than any other material. Not to mention it's cheap, easy to work with and resistant to moisture and compression.
The problem with batting is that it's designed to be used in a uniform cavity that is sealed and much bigger than the space in van walls. Our walls are not sealed, not uniform and shallow. All that expense and effort and you eliminate most of its ability to insulate when you compress it. You don't have that with rigid foam.
Sure, you can install it, upfitters can install it and there may never be any visible issues. It doesn't smell, give you a rash, you may never get mold, etc. But that doesn't mean it's not doing a poor job of insulating in all the areas where you compressed it.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's worthless and not insulating at all. Just saying that it's designed to be in the larger cavity of a structure like a home. All the benefits that people list, that's all centered around being in a large, sealed, wooden cavity of a home or similar structure. Those benefits don't translate to the inside of a van.
So, it's not really about having issues, or even moisture for that matter. It's about it not being ideal or optimal for the application.
It's similar to someone asking what color reflects the most light. The answer is white.
If someone says they feel better about having a red van and it's not uncomfortably warm inside, to them (don't notice any issues), fantastic. Have a red van.
But white still reflects the most light, reduces the most heat transfer and it's the optimal color for that purpose, if anyone is asking.
I think the logic behind most people using a rigid foam (at least for me) is that space is limited in a van and you can get more R value from an inch thick of rigid foam than any other material. Not to mention it's cheap, easy to work with and resistant to moisture and compression.
The problem with batting is that it's designed to be used in a uniform cavity that is sealed and much bigger than the space in van walls. Our walls are not sealed, not uniform and shallow. All that expense and effort and you eliminate most of its ability to insulate when you compress it. You don't have that with rigid foam.
Sure, you can install it, upfitters can install it and there may never be any visible issues. It doesn't smell, give you a rash, you may never get mold, etc. But that doesn't mean it's not doing a poor job of insulating in all the areas where you compressed it.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's worthless and not insulating at all. Just saying that it's designed to be in the larger cavity of a structure like a home. All the benefits that people list, that's all centered around being in a large, sealed, wooden cavity of a home or similar structure. Those benefits don't translate to the inside of a van.
So, it's not really about having issues, or even moisture for that matter. It's about it not being ideal or optimal for the application.
It's similar to someone asking what color reflects the most light. The answer is white.
If someone says they feel better about having a red van and it's not uncomfortably warm inside, to them (don't notice any issues), fantastic. Have a red van.
But white still reflects the most light, reduces the most heat transfer and it's the optimal color for that purpose, if anyone is asking.
It’s been a while since I’ve seen any red sheep tho.🤭
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Hopefully this isn't interpreted as "wool shaming" and folks don't feel the need to defend their decision.
Just conveying the nerdy, black&white, hair-splitting facts, so that anyone asking, can make better informed decisions.
At the end of the day, I don't lose sleep over who uses what and hope no one has issues with whatever materials and processes they go with.
Just conveying the nerdy, black&white, hair-splitting facts, so that anyone asking, can make better informed decisions.
At the end of the day, I don't lose sleep over who uses what and hope no one has issues with whatever materials and processes they go with.
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Thanks Little Mother
I understand wool is hydrophobic & will release moisture back into the atmosphere. The OP asked if wool was worth the additional cost over (I am assuming) Polyiso or XPS rigid. Where I am sure wool has great properties in some applications I do not believe it is great in vans especially with other better products available (polyiso & XPS).
Depending upon “design” here is a scenario why I would not use wool. Wool absorbs water & then sheds it. If a wood product is incorporated in a build & is adjacent to the moisture absorbing/shedding wool then it is quite possible the wood can gain moisture content. Wood is great mold food, especially when the moisture content gets around 30%.
Now for the newbies on here that do not know anything about insulation, vapour barriers, relative humidity, moisture build up in vans, etc; while all this stuff is important to the performance at longevity of your van ceiling, walls, & floor; If reality if you use your van in areas of low relative humidity & your use of your van is done in a manner not to introduce huge amounts of moisture then your build should outlast your PM drivetrain. In short all of this is no big deal.
In response to the OP’s question; In my opinion “No” & I would not use wool if it was less costly. And as RnR stated, this opinion is not posted as a “wool shaming” exercise. When I believe I know something & have an opportunity to share with other DIYers I post the info I think I know with Building Science.
a footnote; Where the environment or allergies to chemicals are a consideration I can understand DIYers choosing a product like wool. In regards to environment, the very little products we DIYers use in vans would have an extremely minimal carbon footprint compared to the building industry or even the fuel we will be burning moving our vans from place to place. If you truly want to save the environment do not buy a gas or diesel burning van. Buying wool over polyiso does not get you into the green hall of fame with your fossil fuel burning van.
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Nicely said RV8R and I agree.
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Thanks for the reply. Makes total sense.
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If directed @ me you are welcome;
I choose polyiso in ceilings & walls & high load XPS in the floor (for water absorption issues most on here are not aware of), great stuff to fill the voids & glue in the rigid, do not fill the rocker panels with anything - just let them breath. Try to use no wood or limited wood treated within your system as practical.
The other system I still think may be better is a total spray job like GaryBIS did. I’m still on the fence as there are pros/cons to both.
Good Luck whatever you decide.
Wools‘ positive points - easy to install
Wools‘ negative points - expensive, holds & releases water, has an odor no matter what they say.
If you know nothing about insulating, wool can be a good, easy way to go. Otherwise, no good reason at all to use it, as the negatives far outweigh the positives. Polyiso, xpf or spray foam are far better at insulating (r factor) easy to work with (if you understand how simple it is to cut) inexpensive, stable etc, etc. Spray foam is expensive but if done correctly is probably the best but messiest.
Wools‘ negative points - expensive, holds & releases water, has an odor no matter what they say.
If you know nothing about insulating, wool can be a good, easy way to go. Otherwise, no good reason at all to use it, as the negatives far outweigh the positives. Polyiso, xpf or spray foam are far better at insulating (r factor) easy to work with (if you understand how simple it is to cut) inexpensive, stable etc, etc. Spray foam is expensive but if done correctly is probably the best but messiest.
Yup
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