I'm sure it's possible, but I'm not so sure it would be worth it. There are a lot of truck bodies out there that could easily be converted to a flatbed at a lower cost, with a higher capacity and without so much work. My guess is that you would have to find a Promaster that is wrecked, but still happens to have a clear title. Just about every state requires repaired vehicles that have salvage titles to be inspected before being licensed for road use again. It would be a shame to spend all that time and money rebuilding the cab to be told that they won't certify for use.

 

There is lots of wiring in the van body too, clearance lights to move, and the chassis cab model or cutaway appears to have a completely different rear frame with the van having outrigger frame tubes and others. I wouldn't give you a certification if I was an inspector unless you had completed an engineering evaluation and submitted it in writing with a CE stamp something you will find very hard to get. If I wanted a yard truck or farm truck for off highway use I would do it in a minute... insurance companies often sell totaled salvage vehicles for 10 percent of book value so for a few thousand $ it would be a fun project. Not for highway use unless I could find someone who had done one.

 

The conversion Fiat Ducato that should be close to the van should be the "chassis cab with platform".
Are used for the ones that need low floor, for example for horses transport.
How to make your own version safe and road legal?

 

When I was poking around for used PMs a while back, I crawled all over a chassis/cab pondering something similar to what you are talking about. From what I could tell, they are not too dissimilar. I guess it depends to a certain extent on how much weight/size you intend to carry. If you are going to haul cars or something that's going to push it right up to the weight limit, then I think you're barking up the wrong tree. But if you are just hauling lawnmowers or something like that, I think you would be okay just sawing the body off and laying down some 2x4s. The wiring isn't a worry. Just move each tail light assembly down and mount it horizontally. The rest is just backup cam, running lights, and rear door lock.

On both of mine, the license plate light went out, and the computer recognized this and gives a dash warning and idiot light for "license plate light bulb out". Oddly, it doesn't do this for the headlights! So, you might have to put those running lights somewhere if you want to keep the functionality of the idiot light. Big whoop.

 

It is certainly possible. There is a break right behind the cab for a traditional frame to be fitted. But there are other companies like AL-KO that sell aftermarket frames with suspension for the Euro Ducato and they literally bolt on - just don't know if they are in the US market now.

Your biggest issue would be getting a steel closure for the back of the cab.

 

Thanks to all who have replied!

There is a break right behind the cab for a traditional frame to be fitted. But there are other companies like AL-KO that sell aftermarket frames with suspension for the Euro Ducato and they literally bolt on - just don't know if they are in the US market now. Your biggest issue would be getting a steel closure for the back of the cab.

Those are interesting pictures. If a bolt-on rear frame is available, I would certainly consider it. That sounds like an "easy" conversion. I don't think closing off the back of the cab would be too hard. I'd probably use 1/8" aluminum with a few ribs, to withstand being bumped by cargo.

I guess it depends to a certain extent on how much weight/size you intend to carry. . . But if you are just hauling lawnmowers or something like that, I think you would be okay just sawing the body off and laying down some 2x4s.

If I do this conversion, I'll want to allow for the stated GVWR for the vehicle. I would definitely reinforce the frame, I wouldn't just lay down some 2x4's on the existing frame.

The conversion Fiat Ducato that should be close to the van should be the "chassis cab with platform". How to make your own version safe and road legal?

I need to go talk to my local Dept. of Motor Vehicles office about the legal part.

I wouldn't give you a certification if I was an inspector unless you had completed an engineering evaluation and submitted it in writing with a CE stamp something you will find very hard to get.

Building it, then not being able to register it would be bad! I'll talk to the DMV before I take the leap. I have built my own 5x10 utility trailer and had it inspected for registration. It was not a very rigorous inspection, but I'm sure a car/truck inspection would be more thorough.

I'm sure it's possible, but I'm not so sure it would be worth it. There are a lot of truck bodies out there that could easily be converted to a flatbed at a lower cost, with a higher capacity and without so much work.

I started by looking into ready-made flatbed trucks/vans. I would like to keep things simple, but I usually keep my vehicles for ~10 years, so some time spent on modifications may be OK. I want a van-type cab, to keep the overall vehicle length as short a possible (for easy parking, turning, etc.) while still having about a 12' bed. The most common ones are the Ford E-series and GM Savana/Express. I have also looked into Sprinters. I want to keep the GVWR to 10,000# or less, to avoid having to get a DOT number. (And that will be plenty of capacity for my use.) The Promaster is appealing for several reasons, including front-wheel drive (good for winter in the mountains), tight turning radius, and decent MPG. I'm still looking at ready-made flatbeds, but toying with this conversion idea.

 

Not 100% sure, but I think those stub frames on the Ducatos pictured above are somewhat different than the regular unibody frame on the vans - they are built to special order for the Euro RV industry, so it might be tricky attaching a new rear frame to an existing van chassis cab.
I have never seen a US version Cab and frame unit - only a few fuzzy pictures in the brochures.

 

Not 100% sure, but I think those stub frames on the Ducatos pictured above are somewhat different than the regular unibody frame on the vans . . . .

I suspected that too.

Why not go with something pickup truck based?

I have considered that. Since the vehicle will be my around-town vehicle, as well as my work truck, I would like for the overall length to be as short a possible, while maximizing the cargo area. With a pick-up truck, the overall length, for a given bed size, will be at least 2' longer than a Promaster. I AM considering other van-type chassis-cab vehicles, but the Promaster is my first choice. If they had been in the US a little longer, it would be easier to find one in my price range (~$10,000).

 

When i was looking to buy a 2nd pm, i saw a few new chassis cabs at around $22k. I havent looked for wrecked ones, and i dont really know that market.

I think its a great idea, but i could play devils advocate. You want 12' of bed, and only need maybe 4000lbs of cargo, and i assume you wont be towing a lot (5000 isnt much tow rating). Why not go with something pickup truck based? Fwd vs 4wd. Seems to me you could buy 2 or 3 of those vs 1 pm.

Not trying to convince you, just putting it out there.

 

IMO, it would be easier for you to buy a used truck instead of conversion; or just get a new chassis cab - you should be able to get a deal for mid $20's

 

Keith W, the poster has said his budget is $10K. Whatever the price more will need to be spent to get the truck outfitted.

 

Time and time again, I have seen attempts to do something the cheap way end up being more expensive than doing it right the first time.

I would not mess with anything that relates to unibody integrity. It's possible that the frame members on the chassis-cab look outwardly similar to what's underneath the van, but the welded-together box of the van contributes a lot of structural integrity that is not there when you chop it away. The frame members on the chassis-cab could be a different thickness or otherwise modified in design to make up for not having a welded-together great big box above them. I don't know if that's the case, but it's highly likely.

There's another bit of ugliness ... corrosion protection. All your chopping and drilling out spot welds is going to expose a lot of bare metal. You are going to have to fabricate something to close off the back of the cab and weld it in place. Nevermind the labour involved - Just the paint job that will be needed will eat up a good chunk of your budget if you want to do it right and for the job to stand the test of time.

If I were the MoT roadworthiness inspector, I'd be skeptical.

If I were your insurance agent, I'd be really skeptical.

In my opinion ... If it's going to be a road vehicle, it's not worthwhile, and not worth the risk, may not be legal, and probably won' be (legally) insurable, at least not in my part of the world.

If it's going to be an off road farm or yard truck ... No license required, no insurance required, no foreseeable risk to the general motoring public ... Hacksaw away and let us know what happens!

 

It's possible that the frame members on the chassis-cab look outwardly similar to what's underneath the van, but the welded-together box of the van contributes a lot of structural integrity that is not there when you chop it away. The frame members on the chassis-cab could be a different thickness or otherwise modified in design to make up for not having a welded-together great big box above them.

I agree that there could be differences in the chassis cab frame that are not easy to see.

 

As far as the economics go . . . for $10,000, I could probably get a 2007 Ford E-350 (or equivalent GM) chassis cab + flatbed with ~120,000 miles.

Or . . . I recently watched a salvage auction for a 2014 Promaster with rear-end damage and I think it went for $7,100 (or $8,000 with delivery and fees). It had about 20,000 miles on it. Cutting and modifying the back looks like it might take a few weeks. (I do metal fabrication work professionally, but not usually vehicles.) So, maybe $3,000 worth of work(?). Its hard to estimate, but the idea of ending up with a newer, low-mileage Promaster, for roughly the same price as an older E-350 is appealing.

There are plenty of red flags waving in the back of my mind, but it's tempting.

 

The underlying frame of the van, or chassis cab (I think):

With the additional channel welded on top, for the chassis cab:

 

These chassis modification recommendations may shed some perspective on required scope of work.

http://www.rambodybuilder.com/iph/iph2013/ph2013/phvan/phdocs/phvf/phvffar.pdf

 

These chassis modification recommendations may shed some perspective on required scope of work.

Thanks. There were a lot of interesting details there.

 

Could be a thicker gauge of metal on the chassis cab as well.

 

If you do it, post pics!

Also, since you are looking for a flat-bed anyhow, you may want to consider keeping the existing floor out to where it attaches to the walls. That way it'll stay attached to the frame members and contribute at least something to the structural integrity.

 

If you do it, post pics!

So you can laugh at me when I am half way through and everything is getting complicated?

Also, since you are looking for a flat-bed anyhow, you may want to consider keeping the existing floor out to where it attaches to the walls. That way it'll stay attached to the frame members and contribute at least something to the structural integrity.

I wouldn't be able to use the existing floor as my bed because I will need to attach additional frame members on top of the low-profile frame that supports the van body. I have wondered though, if I might be able to make use of the floor, in some way, as under-bed storage. In any case, I would like to keep the bed as low as possible, so I will probably have protruding wheel wells.

 

. . . a few months later, and I am still thinking about this . . . .

I have attached an illustration which may be useful to this discussion. If I understand it correctly, it shows the sub-frame(?) of the van body AND the add-on top frame of the chassis cab, all in one picture (within a see-through van body).

I am still uncertain how the top frame member, used in the chassis cab version, terminates at the front end. I would like to know if it extends under the floor of the cab, or if it ends at the point where the floor drops in the van version. Does anyone know?

Another thing I have wondered about, as I have been pondering this conversion: In the high roof vans, how is the shelf over the cab constructed? Is there low-roof-version sheet metal hiding under there, or is the shelf a complete separate unit that is added into the open space created by the high roof?

Thanks,
Swoop

 

All PM variants not custom fleet ordered are built around the low-roof basic chassis.

Two or three months ago while browsing European luxury Ducato RV makers offerings (mining for conversion ideas) one maker had a photo of their base OEM chassis cab roof area shown from above while still on the assembly line.

They said in the caption their unit was factory made without traces of the low roof sheet metal stampings and the photo showed only a three-ish inch 'lip' running around the three sides of the normal low roof cab ceiling - only enough to glue/weld the high roof panels onto - and this was the reason their luxury RV had better cab area design/storage/ergonomics.

The low roof lateral cross beam there supports a molded composite ceiling liner on high roof models and isn't much except for body noise/vibration or crash-worthiness; not a stretch of the imagination that to provide the cab without it they've increased metal thickness or number & position of welds to make up for it's being deleted..

 

a bit ago someone here showed photos of gutting their cab ceiling to install insulation.

 

Here another photo of the frame, some other can be found here http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/chicago/2013/1302_2013_ram_promaster_first_look/.

 

Here another photo of the frame, some other can be found here . . . .

Thanks, I haven't seen that view. It appears that the top section of the frame on a chassis cab couldn't extend more than ~6" into the area under the cab floor (if at all). I would guess that it is welded in a position that creates continuity with the reinforced front section of the frame(?). If it is not integrated into the front section of the frame, I would think there would be a weak spot at the back end of the cab.

 

Al-Ko, that is a manufacturer of frames for motorhome + suspensions parts, has a line of special frames named AMC that are also used with Fiat Ducato.
In the FCA Sevel plant are installed the parts with the flange to attach Al-Ko AMC frames.

 

Other details can be found in some videos, are shown different models vans, motorhomes bases, cutaway, cowl

In this, at around minute 1, is shown a high and low roof version frame welding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kaw5nNZSk10&feature=youtu.be&t=53

There is a version for motorhome manufacturers that doesn't have the top reinforcement frame, it is the "light frame" version (note: rear track is wider in motorhome versions).

In my opinion the closer version to the van version is the "chassis cab with platform"

 

Other details can be found in some videos, are shown different models vans, motorhomes bases, cutaway, cowl

There is a version for motorhome manufacturers that doesn't have the top reinforcement frame, it is the "light frame" version (note: rear track is wider in motorhome versions).

MJAB,

Thanks for the pictures and videos. By stopping and starting the videos, I got some good views of the internal construction. It was interesting to see that the rear frame is initially constructed as a separate unit from the front, then welded together. I still would like to see some clear detail pictures of that joint, but I doubt that I will find that. Anyway, your pictures helped!

I am glad to learn that the RV "chassis cab" is different from the vehicle sold as a chassis cab. I had been thinking that a wrecked RV might be a good candidate for conversion to a flatbed, but it apparently would not be very different structurally from a stripped van. It would still need an additional frame rail on top of the lower rail. Apparently, RV's are engineered as unibody (or semi-unibody) vehicles, like the vans. In any case, I noticed that the RV "chassis cab" is strong enough, in its stripped condition, to drive within the factory.

The last picture you posted, while it looks like a flatbed, also appears to be engineered with the expectation that a box body will be added, and that box will become part of the structural integrity.

Swoop

 

For anyone who took an interest in this thread:

For the past eight months I have followed IAAI salvage auctions and I have bid on a few rear-ended Promasters. I did not end up with a winning bid. I intended to pursue this plan of modifying a wrecked Promaster to make a flatbed, but as time went on, it began to seem like the prices were a little high (as of August 2016) to make this worth the risks that have been discussed here. At this point, getting a vehicle with the "right" kind of damage for this project would cost around $9,000 with fees, transport, etc.

As time has passed, my acceptable price has gone up and the price of "old stock" 2015 Promasters has come down. I found a 2500 chassis cab for $20,271 (total) and I decided to go for it. I won't have to loose sleep wondering if I reinforced the frame adequately. I'm eager to move on to the next step (making the flatbed).

 

Congrats on buying. I too had looked a unsold 2014 chassis cabs a while back. Seems they didn't really catch on like FCA intended. The Transit probably has something to do with it - probably a better starting point for vocational upfits. That said, I have seen one or two flatbed PMs on the road, along with 1 mini tow truck.

Just curious, where does one go to participate in these salvage auctions? Can you give us a crash course (pun!) in this. It's new to me.

 

Just curious, where does one go to participate in these salvage auctions? Can you give us a crash course (pun!) in this.

The biggest salvage auction companies in the US seem to be IAAI and Copart. They are set up primarily to get wrecked vehicles from insurance companies to professional re-builders or scrappers. For an individual to buy through either company, you need to work through a broker. Each company has info on their website about finding a broker. The arrangement typically involves a registration fee of a few hundred, then a $1,000 deposit before bidding. If you win an auction, there are more fees, based on the selling price.

Once registered, you can follow the auctions and bid online. You need to be certain of your top price before the auction begins, because the auction for each vehicle takes ~30-60 seconds! The options for inspecting vehicles before auctions are very limited. Courage and research are required . . . .

 

I poked around a bit on IAAI. Very interesting. Unfortunatly, there's no way to know what PMs sell for, except for a few running/driving ones with minor damage. Since you were looking, what can I expect to pay for a real parts car? Even a half melted one?

 

Yeah, it's hard to get info on past sales. To see the prices, you have to be registered and you have to check after the auction has ended for the particular vehicle, but before that location's auctions have ended for the day (typically a few hours).

At this time, the oldest Promasters are about 2 1/2 years old, so the best ones are selling close to typical used car prices. The wrecked ones are quite variable, depending on the type of damage. If the engine area is completely intact, I doubt you could find one for less than $6,000 (with other significant damage). If the front end is smashed, and you just want body parts, you might find one for $4,000(?). I'm not sure. I was specifically focused on Promasters with moderate straight-line rear damage, so the frame wouldn't be twisted and so I wouldn't have to do any repairs on the parts I didn't plan to cut away.

In a few years, with more Promasters in circulation, there will probably be some better deals available.

 

I tried to get a handle on that by using minivans as a gauge. Saw a few body destroyed 2014-up Town and Countries being offered for $1500-4000. Seems like promasters would be congruent.

I have 2 pms at near 200k, and I have 2 buddies that also have them. Between those 4, and given the kind of miles we log, parts are gonna break. I just paid $400 for a new fan module, and I could use a new strut assembly.

I'm seriously looking into it.