As you said, I would think that the connection outside the locker defeats the other safety items you have in place. I’d say inside locker if possible to prevent a leak at the connection.


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As you said, I would think that the connection outside the locker defeats the other safety items you have in place. I’d say inside locker if possible to prevent a leak at the connection.

Good point. Inside solenoid mount would mean I would have just one in-cabin connection at the heater and that is a flare connection.

Unrelated rant: Why Propex sends a compression fitting with their heater is beyond me.

 

Thanks for the reminder RV8R.
Was aware of the British made propane fitting being BSPT and ordered what you show long ago from McMaster.

Am familiar with BSPT as I have owned many British automobiles going back to the 60s. What disappointed me was it was a compression fitting.
I see many of you warned forum readers on NOT using compression fittings with propane.

 

Thanks for the reminder RV8R.
Was aware of the British made propane fitting being BSPT and ordered what you show long ago from McMaster.

Am familiar with BSPT as I have owned many British automobiles going back to the 60s. What disappointed me was it was a compression fitting.
I see many of you warned forum readers on NOT using compression fittings with propane.

You are Welcome @Soon2Retire (I had a 1968 GT6 when I was a kid - loved that car).

I am no expert, but I do not like the compression fitting - they might be fine - personal preference.

Regarding the solenoid valve; I did not have one in my 2018 build. My understanding is these valves go between the tank and the regulator or the high pressure side. If this is the case then I would want the valve to be as close to the tank as practical or at least with as few of joints as possible.

So in that case I suppose you could take the high pressure outside and have the regulator outside. I might put a solenoid valve in my new build.

Another thing I was "told" by an RV shop is in Canada a new regulation came out a few years back regarding placement of the regulator. They want the regulator mounted higher than the tank valve. The reason was to eliminate the possibility of liquid propane from entering the regulator. I have not researched this, but it made sense to me & I mounted my regulator above my tank in my 2018 build. So with an interior propane locker that is vented at the floor, that means the regulator and "solenoid valve" would have to be in the propane locker.

 

Deleted - accidentally posted twice.

 

Hi,
Just curious how much current the solenoid draws when activated?

Gary

 

This one;

Looks like 1.0A max it says on the valve.





SOLENOID LOCK OFF VALVE LPG PROPANE 12V FUELOCK LOCKOFF LIQUID VAPOR GAS VOLT LPG 151 : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific

 

Will be researching 12v solenoid valves now. A quick look earlier this morning showed that when energized consumption was 1amp on one, and only model, I briefly looked at. Don't know if that is typical, will find out tonight and likely order.

I can't be reaching into the locker to turn on and off when touring in cold climate. I certainly don't want the line from locker to heater unexpectedly leak into cabin due to failed fitting, tube or due to road accident. This is why I am considering a solenoid shut off valve.

A gung ho owner, not me, could interlock the solenoid to ignition voltage. This is what Ram does with the swivel seat. If not facing forward van won't start. It's simple to let van start but force valve to close. A point of interest only as I have no plans to do this.

 

Could be a while before leaked gas finds it's way down to the floor drain hole.

Propane gas is heavier than air so even a slow leak will tend to flow out the bottom drain.

 

Before I mount N.C. solenoid valve inside locker was wondering if this is a good idea?
An explosion proof solenoid is quite pricey and for my needs overkill.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I would not want an electrical device inside that locker unless it was explosion proof. That's exactly the scenario an explosion proof solenoid is intended for.

I understand they are pricey and it's likely to not be needed, but.....

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

 

I totally agree with you JerryW. What throws me off is that this seems like accepted practice for LP lockers ! What am I missing ?
I have spec'd and supervised many explosion proof electrical installations in industry in lesser explosive environments.

I know propane is heavier and will flow out the bottom but at a rate fast enough to keep overall locker concentration under explosive limit? Hmmm.
Chances coil will spark is likely remote and needs a propane leak to do harm. It's a remote risk only the van owner can make.

Hoping to learn more about this application. Anyone looked at this before ?

 

Hi,
Don't want to talk you out of a safety feature, but a couple things to consider on whether the solenoid is needed...

The pressure on the outlet side of the regulator is 11 inches of water, this is only 0.4 psi - really low. The copper line and flare fittings normally used are probably good for well over 100 psi. The copper pipe and flare connections are very robust.
I guess its always possible the regulator would fail in such a way as to put full tank pressure in the line, but I've had two regulators go out over the years and both just resulted in no flow - so, maybe this is the way you design regulators?

You have such a simple setup - potentially only one fitting outside the propane locker. And, you can be very careful when you do the installation to support the line well and make sure there are no places where contact with other things could abrade the line.

Of course, the propane is odorized, so small leaks will make themselves known.

I've had 4 RVs over 50 years, all with propane and none with a solenoid. Never had a single mishap on plumbing inside the RV - so far

Again, not trying to talk you out of it - just adding a bit more data.

Gary

 

Hi,
Don't want to talk you out of a safety feature, but a couple things to consider on whether the solenoid is needed...

The pressure on the outlet side of the regulator is 11 inches of water, this is only 0.4 psi - really low. The copper line and flare fittings normally used are probably good for well over 100 psi. The copper pipe and flare connections are very robust.
I guess its always possible the regulator would fail in such a way as to put full tank pressure in the line, but I've had two regulators go out over the years and both just resulted in no flow - so, maybe this is the way you design regulators?

You have such a simple setup - potentially only one fitting outside the propane locker. And, you can be very careful when you do the installation to support the line well and make sure there are no places where contact with other things could abrade the line.

Of course, the propane is odorized, so small leaks will make themselves known.

I've had 4 RVs over 50 years, all with propane and none with a solenoid. Never had a single mishap on plumbing inside the RV - so far

Again, not trying to talk you out of it - just adding a bit more data.

Gary

GaryBis, thoughtful reply, thank you.

Yes my LP set up is simple unlike the ones I owned the past 50 years. As you well know, only fossil fuel can properly heat these campers. It was between propane and gas/diesel heaters. Propane won for reasons already discussed on this forum.

My installation is solid, I am not concerned with cabin leaks. There will be an alarm and as you stated propane is odorized. Perhaps I am overthink the risk of having propane spill out of line from tank to heater in event of an accident. This is where the easy to flip solenoid valve electrical switch, that isolates the tank just before hitting we hit the road, comes in. Problem is that device (solenoid coil) has the potential to be a greater risk than a fire due to a road accident. It's a pick your poison situation, get blown up or burn in a fire. Have not found a true explosion proof valve with a smallish body that fits and not cost a small fortune.

I appreciate you reminding me that in 50+ years no safety issues. I did not either starting with my first van build in early 70s running propane lines all over the van. Worse, back then I was not half as careful with solid build practices as I am today. Your words became a much needed reality check. Thank you.

 

Propex & 37mBar 🙄

37mBar “thanks UK” is just under 15WC. I was told by Propex “Canada” the NA Propex requires 13WC (I do not necessarily believe that). NA standard regulators are supposed to be set @ 11WC & like @GaryBIS stated that is low like 0.4 psi. I have purged 3 Propex HS2800 systems now & performed the initial fire up. You can block that 0.4psi on the copper tube with your finger.

I was also told by Propex to use a “good” 2 stage regulator. FWIW.

All 3 Propex HS 2800 have run with no issues so far. So I believe the 11WC works just fine with them, but maybe less BTU output.

If you have the Digistat controller great 👍 If not you may want to look into it. On the initial setup if you can not get the unit to fire up - then you need to reset the unit by “paperclip” & 2 taps on the reset button in the hole in the Digistat. The Propex is smart & goes thru a quick diagnostic before allowing propane into the burner. If you do not purge the propane line to the back of the heater prior to initial fire up it will probably run an error code and shut down - hence the “reset”.

Good Luck !!

 

Propex & 37mBar 🙄

37mBar “thanks UK” is just under 15WC. I was told by Propex “Canada” the NA Propex requires 13WC (I do not necessarily believe that). NA standard regulators are supposed to be set @ 11WC
.......
I was also told by Propex to use a “good” 2 stage regulator. FWIW.

All 3 Propex HS 2800 have run with no issues so far. So I believe the 11WC works just fine with them, but maybe less BTU output.

If you have the Digistat controller great 👍 If not you may want to look into it..

Good Luck !!

Thanks RV8R. I have a 2 stage regulator coming in today, I believe it's factory set at 11"wc. I could measure with my U tube and see if setting is ok.

VanCafe sells non Propex factory 2 stage regulators but out of stock, factory setting not mentioned. I will hear from them tomorrow will ask out of curiosity.

I did not buy the Digistat but am open to exchange if VanCafe approves. Will know tomorrow. Not sure I want more complicated controls but open to the idea. As long as the heater works I am ok.

 

Hi,
Apparently you can get these propane pigtail hoses that have built in protection against excess flow and also a thermal shutdown.

Amazon.com: Camco 15" Pigtail Propane Hose Connector, Connects Propane Cylinder To a RV or Trailer Propane Regulator, Provides Thermal Protection and Excess Flow Protection (59065) : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Buy Camco 15" Pigtail Propane Hose Connector, Connects Propane Cylinder To a RV or Trailer Propane Regulator, Provides Thermal Protection and Excess Flow Protection (59065): Grill Connectors & Hoses - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Seems like a good idea?

This would be in addition to the excess flow protection valve in the 20 lb tanks.

edit: another interesting gadget - similar to what RV mentioned above...

https://www.amazon.ca/Knob-Where-You-Need-Extension/dp/B01LZT14XJ

Gary

 

Yes, if they work !!

I think I have those hoses - at least they look the same (purchased @ local RV shop).

Kudos to you @GaryBIS on finding a remote valve knob - great find for anyone in the need - looks like it can go around a corner 😁 - no use reinventing the wheel. No wiring - no spark 👍

I buy my 20lb tanks @ Costco. As you mentioned the tanks have safety features built in. IIRC the Costco tanks I buy have a float & valve shut off so they can not be filled more than 80% capacity (not that that ever happens as typically when paying for a “fill price” fat chance of an overfill or even an 80% fill - reminds me of thumb on the scale 😡)

Pressure relieve valves & excessive flow shut offs also

 

This happened years ago where I live;

IIRC, BBQ stored inside a construction seacan container (they are vented at the top) propane is heavier than air, seacans are otherwise sealed, sealed doors, & you can see where this is going.

Saanich explosion a reminder of shipping container dangers

Container doors flew from Midtown condo into Rutledge Park

www.vicnews.com

The need to vent a propane locker thru the floor is real - and real important.

I am not trying to scare anyone here, but properly designed & maintained systems whether, propane, gas, diesel, or electrical are important for safety reasons. Any energy storage system malfunctioning & not allowing for that malfunction can be deadly.

Batteries are not benign - they can explode & cause fires.

I choose propane & batteries, but there are dangers with all.

 

The regular thermostat with the Propex works just fine, each click on ours is about 2-3 degF, at least around 'room' temperatures. It holds a temp pretty accurately, we camped in 20F weather with our 2 month-old and he slept in the same clothing that he would use in our home. The drawback of the analog one is that you can't set it at like 40F to keep the van from freezing if you'll be away, I think it only goes down to the 50F region.

We have a 12v motorized ball valve inside of our propane locker, just after the regulator. If the regulator fails/leaks, it will go out the vent hole in the bottom of the locker. The valve is to keep the lines inside the living space blocked from the tank while we drive or while the van is not being used. A motorized ball valve only draws power when opening/closing, and is approved for fuel usage. It is not designed for true hazardous use, if you want a valve that is officially rated for use in a highly combustible environment, you're going to pay dearly for it.

Also, ours worked fine with our initial regulator at 14 WC, but we switched to an 11 WC one while we were working with VanCafe to diagnose a high-altitude issue. If you get an HS-2800, there's a good chance it will not work above 8000ft altitude, but VanCafe can modify it under warranty. Ours works great even at 11k now.

 

Thanks for your post @supermoocow !!

RWER “Real World Experience Reports” so very helpful with the DIYers.

Creates RWK “Real World Knowledge”. The kinda stuff @GaryBIS posts & I am very grateful for !!

In a World of Marketing, BS, & Deception my bias is to trust the Forum Members here and vet out their posts as best I can with what I think I know.

 

I had problems initially with the HS2000 firing up (it would take 5-8 times). After emails with support in the UK I determined the 11" wc 2 stage regulator versus the 14" wc it is expecting was the issue. Through trial and error I discovered if the the furnace exhaust was slightly covered it would fire up the first try. So I stuck some HVAC metal tape on the end of the exhaust (covers about 25%) and it has worked fine. I have used it several times at 11,000 ft. I use to have a chart of the temperatures for the analog dial settings, support in the UK sent the info to me. We normally set it at the 8 o'clock position to sleep and 9 when we get out of bed. I am not sure of the lower setting of 50F, it seems closer to 40F or lower from my experience.

 

Thank you so much Mcneill78@windstream.net.

Very useful data driven information. If I understand you correctly, while the 11"wc regulator works ok the preferred operating pressure is the factory recommended 14"wc ?
Your exhaust outlet blockage does not relate as I have the in cabin mounted HS 2800 and I think the exhaust I installed will stay clear. Hopefully.

Great that the HS 2000 works well at 11k ft. We love high altitudes and if ever you need heat, especially in winter, is at altitude as long as road is clear.

Sounds like the analog thermostat will work well for us. I talked to VanCafe this morning and I can not exchange my analog for the digital model.

Thanks very much for the Propex analog thermostat temperature chart you attached.

 

I found the temp chart, the settings are are about 1.8F apart except for the lowest (freeze guard) and max

 

Propex UK recommends 14 WC (it's printed on the unit as 37 mbar), however the US distributor VanCafe recommends 11 WC. They do all of their testing and work at that value, so if you run into trouble that will be the first thing they want you to try is running it at 11 instead of 14. We noticed zero difference switching from 14 to 11, other than our wallet was now $50 lighter and we have a spare regulator. We live about an hour from VanCafe, so it was nice being able to go to their shop and talk with them when we were getting the altitude warranty fix done on our HS2800. They were the ones who told us about the 8000+ft altitude problem being common on the Propexes, I don't know if it was specifically the 2800 or all of them.

 

Supermoocow, thanks for the heads up.

For those that have the Propex HS2800, I talked to Dan at VanCafe on this. He said that prior to your issue he had never seen an altitude problem with the HS2800. He issued some work order to Propex leading to some "work" on your HS2800 motherboard. He assured me the HS 2800 works fine at higher than 8000 ft altitude. I asked about the Propex recommending 15" wc. He said 11-12" wc works just fine at all altitudes. Will find out soon enough.

 

1/2" Brass Electric Ball Valve - 3 Wire
They also have 2-wire versions, which have a negligible power draw when open but will auto-close when power is removed.

I'm not sure I would put a ball valve externally under the van, that's a pretty harsh environment. I wouldn't even put propane lines under the van unless they were black iron pipe (like on RVs), or have some enclosure around them. Copper lines (especially the bendable ones) aren't very durable to rocks and road grime. Also make sure you have plenty of 'give' in your mounting and through holes to allow for van body flex and temperature expansion/contraction if you have long external runs.

 

Guess we were pioneers...

 

Anyone have any info on Propex and altitude?

We got the 4 red flashes again the past couple nights. "Combustion air fault". Reset and it works for a few hours, then fault again. The only other time this happened was the very first use at Wild Willy's Hot Spring near Mammoth Lakes. It's worked flawlessly every other time (well over 100 nights).

Wild Willy's is around 8000 feet, 2 nights ago Cloudcroft 8700 feet, and we are around 7500 feet now. Almost every other night has been under 6000 feet. The one (maybe) outlier was off 89A north of the Grand Canyon at 7900 feet. I don't remember, but it might or might not have had issue that night - if it did I would have reset and just forgotten about it.

 

We are not typically up in the nosebleed sections, but I think what really matters is the “density altitude”. That being said, if I have your location correct the true altitude & density altitude are close right now.

Have you been on dusty roads? I heard there is a sensor in the unit from another Forum Member.

The air gets thinner & @ 8000’ density altitude a normally aspirated engine can only produce 75% of its power. So an altitude adjustment like @supermoocow referenced might be the trick for you.

If it is “thin air” lack of oxygen, there must be a ratio to the propane. Then there is the other issue UK Propex is set for almost 15WC & North American regulators are typically set for 11WC. I have heard that the NA Propex are reset, but I am suspicious of that as the labels do not get changed and still show 37mBar = 15WC.

A good quality 2 stage regulator is a must.

I have a Propex HS2800 at my cabin (I have seen the Density Altitude over 6,000’ when the True Altitude is 3,500’). No issues so far with it running there

 

I had a post about that awhile ago when we ran into issues. We were told that sometimes they have issues 8000+ ft, but not all do. Ours had trouble lighting above 8000 ft, give or take a few hundred feet due to weather (air pressure-related, so it fluctuates). Once it worked for a few min at 9200, but that was an outlier.

Van cafe (in Ft Collins, CO) performed a fix on ours under warranty, so it was free. It works every time now, we've used it up to 11k ft since then.

You also may want to make sure nothing is partially blocking your intake pipe.

 

I checked both pipes and they appeared fine. Will see how it goes tonight (7500 ft) and tomorrow (5300 ft). What fault code was it giving you?

 

I bought a regulator and used it as it came, don't know the precise pressure but assume it's around 11 inches.

@RV8R location is actually near Cedro Peak trailhead east of Albuquerque. The heater worked tonight. But that doesn't really mean much if I'm at the border (of high altitude) here (only 7500 ft) and it took hours for it to shut off the last couple nights. And density could vary day to day.

 

Does your intake pipe protrude from the side of the van? We've been in some very windy conditions (van-shaking) and never had any issue with ours, only the >8000ft one. And nothing since the fix. Our intake points downward and only goes to the outer frame rail, it does not stick out the side of the van, so that may shelter it a bit.

 

Exhaust Pipe near rear side of passenger rear tire;

Intake Pipe heads towards Driver’s side & points down;

To locate, you can see the parking brake lines.

I have sent these and more photos to my supplier to see what he says. I note the intake has a slight possible “drainage” issue where the pipe goes over the brake cables. The exhaust has a consistent slope to the exit point to ensure combustion water is escaping.

The system has worked flawlessly other than up @ 3500’ in windy conditions.

I do not want to alter it until I hear from the supplier, but otherwise I would decrease the downward protrusion of the intake pipe to “shelter it more” from the wind. I do not think it needs that much “turn down” at the end of the intake pipe. Waiting for the supplier’s comments.

 

I don't recall any particular issues in wind. There have been many very windy nights and most of those nights I did not have an issue. I don't remember whether or not it was windy on high elevation nights.

We have been in Cortez and the surrounding area for a while, at only a bit over 6,000 ft, and I did have it shut off one night while at Canyons of the Ancients. I was there 4 nights, and it was very windy one night (I think last Thursday), but I don't remember which night it shut off. My intake is under the van, not aiming at the side. I was slightly sheltered by small scrubby desert evergreens of some sort, but there were supposedly gusts up to 65 mph in the area that day.