[HarryN]

Home battery packs and EV packs are one possible way to store and save money - but it is a bit tricky.

The guidelines are forcing home owners to allow the utility to take power from their own personal battery pack - and feed it back into the grid as needed - paying them more or less nothing for it even if the homeowner charged it all up from their own solar installation.

Then they are turning around and charging that same consumer - full retail, peak demand prices for all power that they use - even the power that came from their own solar panels and their own battery pack.

On top of this, if an EV is plugged in to the wall and the grid wants that power - they want to reach in during this 3 - 8 pm period and tap into it - pay essentially wholesale rates.

So now you might have a classic soccer mom situation where she thinks her EV battery is full at 1 pm, but at 3 when she leaves to get her kids - part of the charge is now missing.

I realize that you are very pro EV and solar. I use solar + battery + inverter to run my off grid shop - but I can predict my cost and who is using that power and when.

____

At this point, I have not yet been able to figure out how to install a PV system on my own home (either me or a real solar pro ) that meets code and faces the sun during peak hours. I have the location, just have not yet identified all of the components needed to actually meet building, electrical, fire, earthquake, insurance and California's ever fluid interpretations.

It does not make any sense for me to put solar panels on the house if they face a direction / time of day that already has a power glut.

I really don't have any interesting in selling power to the grid at all, but it is not so easy to prevent.

If you want to call all of this mess "California leading the way" while we can barely do sensible things but have people end up without power due to poor planning - sure, we can call it that.

 

[CarKeys]

52k Homes without electricity today ( locally)
Dependent on a unreliable power source not a good idea.

 

[Bromaster5]

@CarKeys

Hopefully the power gets working again for you! that's a bummer! What is this like 4 days already?

We did Christmas Eve last year without power, about three days total, what made it serious was the unusual Arctic temps we experienced here in Virginia, hitting -20F for about a 24 hour period, the following day warmed to a high of 15F. Still significantly colder than normal. Eggs in one basket never the best idea.

 

[RV8R]

So what they actually did was change how the pricing works to deal with the reality that the bulk of the solar panels that are installed - are generating power at the wrong time of day.

We have the classic duck curve - which means that renewables are generating so much power during the middle of the day, that conventional resources are forced to nearly shut completely off. Literally a complete glut of power that floods the grid.

Then just when we really need every ounce of energy possible - the renewables are falling apart (facing the wrong direction) - the heat engine based power has to kick on as fast as it physically can in a "turn it on hard and fast" mode as solar drops to practically zero.

So the new NEM setup is mostly a re-pricing plan to basically tell the people with solar (or are forced by mandate to install solar - all new homes ) that the utility isn't going to pay much or anything for that power during the glut.

In an attempt to make up for this out of phase supply and demand (caused by incorrect installation angles ) the retail price for electricity is now going to skyrocket during the 3 - 8 pm time period - but now even more that before.

The agreements that were previously in place and used to finance it all - are in some areas just scrapped and replaced with complete wild card pricing plans.

My Dad finished his Masters in Fort Collins ( so our family lived there for 1 year ). He was a Professional Agrologist for our government for 35 years before he retired ( just below the political level ,,, so dealt with the politicians of the day for 35 years ). Laws & Policies change of course, but my Dad had a great sense of humor & I remember many phrases he would pass on & one of my fondest is a Greeting he would jokingly share when meeting a “Farmer” or other Agricultural Citizen he already knew.

“Hi, I am from The Government & I am here to Help You” 😁

I always thought ,,, “Help me Outta What?”



With almost 60 years of being “fed what we all get fed” and the BS that I have witnessed over the years, I am just slightly more skeptical than @GaryBIS ,,, I sincerely believe Gary “IMO” is on the right path of “The Environmental” equation. The problem is some of us are a product if our “Environment” & have seen hypocrisy & hypocrites profit at lemmings expense. In Canada, we don’t really “vote for people”, we choose the lessor of the evil (or replace evil with whatever word you see fit). We vote them out.


Salesmen, Cheats, & Liars !!

I believe I am a Realist, but in my career & somewhat personal life, I focus on the negative items because “I don’t have to fix the positive”. Eyes Wide Open to see the dangers is best IMO. That means question what we are being told & look for things that do not make sense.

In Canada, there is skepticism from many ,,, Carbon Tax the heck out if us ,,, I’m all for it to save the Environment (if it needs to be saved) ,,, Start with the big guys first & work you way down towards the marginalized. Open book policy of course audited by the opposition. With all these taxes we paid are we 25% outta this ? 1% ? None%? If other countries are building things & flooding the markets with them cheap & use coal as energy to build things ,,, where is the audit ,,, where is the import carbon tax & who is buying all this stuff. BTW, I research none of this ,,, I just assume ideologies are similar & the World still has Salesmen, Cheats, & Liars.


“The Carrot or The Stick” ?? Neither ,,, I will keep my memories & be involved once every 4 years.

 

[GaryBIS]

52k Homes without electricity today ( locally)
Dependent on a unreliable power source not a good idea.
View attachment 100716

Hi,
I'm just curious.

What part of the country are we talking about?
How big an area are we talking about?
What are the reasons for scheduled outages?
How much notice do you get for the scheduled outages?
How long do the scheduled outages last?

Is there a link you can point us to that this info comes from?

It seems like this is a good reason to have an EV with the vehicle to load feature so you can power your house for days off the EV when you get a power outage?

Gary

 

[RV8R]

Hey @GaryBIS

coincidentally or not 😳, right now I just got back to the van & parked next to my Promaster was this “Dark Prince”;

an Omen maybe ?? Maybe there is a Tesla in RV8R’s Future !! Pretty Fancy looking car.

I’m very attracted to the flat charcoal paint job.

 

[tgblake]

Hey @GaryBIS

coincidentally or not 😳, right now I just got back to the van & parked next to my Promaster was this “Dark Prince”;

View attachment 100718


an Omen maybe ?? Maybe there is a Tesla in RV8R’s Future !! Pretty Fancy looking car.

I’m very attracted to the flat charcoal paint job.

That color is actually called midnight silver metallic and it is currently the standard included color. I say currently, because when I bought mine, the standard color was white. Any other color than the standard color costs an additional $1,000-$2,000 USD. I would have preferred the silver, but didn't want to pay $1,000 extra, so I got white. That's OK since I am currently in the California desert (Coachella Valley) and the white is better in the 90 degree heat today.

 

[RV8R]

That color is actually called midnight silver metallic and it is currently the standard included color. I say currently, because when I bought mine, the standard color was white. Any other color than the standard color costs an additional $1,000-$2,000 USD. I would have preferred the silver, but didn't want to pay $1,000 extra, so I got white. That's OK since I am currently in the California desert (Coachella Valley) and the white is better in the 90 degree heat today.

Thanks @tgblake ,,, My Charcoal reference was my subtle attempt a word play ,,, kinda like owning a white Tesla currently in the California desert 😁

If I were to buy an EV I am attracted to Teslas. I would want a new or “current” model

 

[GaryBIS]

Hey @GaryBIS

coincidentally or not 😳, right now I just got back to the van & parked next to my Promaster was this “Dark Prince”;

View attachment 100718


an Omen maybe ?? Maybe there is a Tesla in RV8R’s Future !! Pretty Fancy looking car.

I’m very attracted to the flat charcoal paint job.

Definitely an omen - now you have to take a demo ride!
Or come down here and you can borrow mine for a day.

Gary

 

[CarKeys]

@CarKeys

Hopefully the power gets working again for you! that's a bummer! What is this like 4 days already?

We did Christmas Eve last year without power, about three days total, what made it serious was the unusual Arctic temps we experienced here in Virginia, hitting -20F for about a 24 hour period, the following day warmed to a high of 15F. Still significantly colder than normal. Eggs in one basket never the best idea.

Yep.. Thanks, stinks to be dependent on electricity .
Opposite to Virginia . Electric was turned of for maintenance during a 14 day 110°+ heatwave.
Thankfully , no gas shortage keep our generator running.

 

[CarKeys]

Hi,
I'm just curious.

What part of the country are we talking about?
How big an area are we talking about?
What are the reasons for scheduled outages?
How much notice do you get for the scheduled outages?
How long do the scheduled outages last?

Is there a link you can point us to that this info comes from?

It seems like this is a good reason to have an EV with the vehicle to load feature so you can power your house for days off the EV when you get a power outage?

Gary

GaryBis

Your 6 Questions have no relevance to my post .
Whether powers out in a small rural community or 49 contiguous.
52k have no electricity.
Not everyone has propane/Generator/solar as a back up .
EV's are a luxury , same as owning boat , not everyone is set up to own one .

Carkeys.

 

[Baxsie]

. . . EV's are a luxury . . .

Right now, probably so.

Arguably, even after the introduction of the Model T, ICE vehicles were a luxury. They are still a luxury to some significant part of the world population, and even in the "rich" US, we have population segments that can't afford a car at all - ICE or EV.

Current ICE cars go from cheap to insane. EVs are generally more expensive, they generally require home chargers to be economically effective. This, by extension, require homes and that is not a given in today's world.

Additionally, the public charging infrastructure is not there yet. We are hugely behind here in Eastern Washington compared to California and even Western Washington.

So, yes, just like when ICE vehicles came out, EV early adopters will tend to be willing to spend more on the new technology vehicle.

Eventually, ICE cars, trucks, and tractors replaced all their horse powered predecessors. It was not necessarily because people became fanboys if the new tech (although there were certainly some), it was simply because the gasoline versions were cheaper.

Economics will eventually be what powers the change to widespread EV adoption. Some people will jump on EV at the first chance, some people will hang onto ICE to their last.

As EV matures, becomes cheaper and approaches the same ease of use as ICE, the largest number of consumers will choose the cheaper route and get an EV.

Yes, governments will likely tilt the scales in the direction that aligns with whatever the current policy is.

For me, it is fun seeing the wave coming and to enjoy the ride.

Concerning solar, as lucky as I am here to have cheap hydropower, that same cheap electricity makes solar economically unfeasable. Two different times I have seriously looked into installing solar, an the math just doesn't work. For instance, the interest on the money needed to make about 1/4 of our power was more than the entire electric bill. On the other hand, in the sunnier southwest with it's more expensive power, solar is everywhere.

Like it or not, economics is what will drive the change.

Also, @RV8R, what is with the triple commas?

 

[Bromaster5]

.error.

 

[Bromaster5]

Yep.. Thanks, stinks to be dependent on electricity .
Opposite to Virginia . Electric was turned of for maintenance during a 14 day 110°+ heatwave.
Thankfully , no gas shortage keep our generator running.

I could only hope there was advanced warning of these outages for maintenance.. crazy.

Heres a link if interested, telling of "The East Coast Grid" last Christmas Eve and what soured between the PJM Interconnect. All the Christmas hams must have caused a fuse to blow. Yeah right. They claim they alerted us to conserve power, we didn't get an alert until after the power returned. Instinct felt, we knew ahead of time it was going to be dicey. They cut the power to the people living in the sticks, the nearby City of Roanoke power was on.

How a lack of power for sale led to Duke Energy's Christmas Eve blackouts[/QUOTE]

 

[rjcarter3]

Right now, probably so.

Arguably, even after the introduction of the Model T, ICE vehicles were a luxury. They are still a luxury to some significant part of the world population, and even in the "rich" US, we have population segments that can't afford a car at all - ICE or EV.

Current ICE cars go from cheap to insane. EVs are generally more expensive, they generally require home chargers to be economically effective. This, by extension, require homes and that is not a given in today's world.

Additionally, the public charging infrastructure is not there yet. We are hugely behind here in Eastern Washington compared to California and even Western Washington.

So, yes, just like when ICE vehicles came out, EV early adopters will tend to be willing to spend more on the new technology vehicle.

Eventually, ICE cars, trucks, and tractors replaced all their horse powered predecessors. It was not necessarily because people became fanboys if the new tech (although there were certainly some), it was simply because the gasoline versions were cheaper.

Economics will eventually be what powers the change to widespread EV adoption. Some people will jump on EV at the first chance, some people will hang onto ICE to their last.

As EV matures, becomes cheaper and approaches the same ease of use as ICE, the largest number of consumers will choose the cheaper route and get an EV.

Yes, governments will likely tilt the scales in the direction that aligns with whatever the current policy is.

For me, it is fun seeing the wave coming and to enjoy the ride.

Concerning solar, as lucky as I am here to have cheap hydropower, that same cheap electricity makes solar economically unfeasable. Two different times I have seriously looked into installing solar, an the math just doesn't work. For instance, the interest on the money needed to make about 1/4 of our power was more than the entire electric bill. On the other hand, in the sunnier southwest with it's more expensive power, solar is everywhere.

Like it or not, economics is what will drive the change.

Also, @RV8R, what is with the triple commas?

If everyone drove EV’s, and I told you I built a car that goes nearly double the range in any weather, heats your car for free, refuels from 0-100% in 2 minutes and that your fuel capacity does not degrade over time, you would say that's progress.

Certainly, there are some tradeoffs: the gasoline refueling infrastructure isn't there yet, but it will become commonplace over time, enabling you to make full day road trips basically nonstop. However, the extremely low price of gasoline versus the heavily taxed utility rates will start putting money back into your pocket almost immediately.

Mechanics will also need to learn how to work on these machines as they are more complex than EV’s, but complexity is part of modernity. Horse and buggies were very simple, electric cars were more complex and internal combustion cars are even more complex.

Of course, there will be some people who hold onto their EV’s until their last, but as governments clamp down on lithium and rare earth mining, batteries will continue to degrade and these cars will outlive their usefulness as replacement batteries will go from cost prohibitive to insane. Besides, with proper maintenance your ICE vehicle’s powertrain may outlive you. I have a 30 year old prototype with only a new clutch (a device which engages the transmission to the engine) which I would estimate to only cost about $800 to replace. Compare that to the cost of replacing a new EV battery, even before the new government regulations!

As you can see, just because something is new doesn’t mean it’s better. There are some definite advantages to EV’s but also some significant drawbacks. Whether it’s progress, lateral change or regression is usually decided by the consumer independent of government coercion.

 

[RV8R]

Right now, probably so.

Arguably, even after the introduction of the Model T, ICE vehicles were a luxury. They are still a luxury to some significant part of the world population, and even in the "rich" US, we have population segments that can't afford a car at all - ICE or EV.

Current ICE cars go from cheap to insane. EVs are generally more expensive, they generally require home chargers to be economically effective. This, by extension, require homes and that is not a given in today's world.

Additionally, the public charging infrastructure is not there yet. We are hugely behind here in Eastern Washington compared to California and even Western Washington.

So, yes, just like when ICE vehicles came out, EV early adopters will tend to be willing to spend more on the new technology vehicle.

Eventually, ICE cars, trucks, and tractors replaced all their horse powered predecessors. It was not necessarily because people became fanboys if the new tech (although there were certainly some), it was simply because the gasoline versions were cheaper.

Economics will eventually be what powers the change to widespread EV adoption. Some people will jump on EV at the first chance, some people will hang onto ICE to their last.

As EV matures, becomes cheaper and approaches the same ease of use as ICE, the largest number of consumers will choose the cheaper route and get an EV.

Yes, governments will likely tilt the scales in the direction that aligns with whatever the current policy is.

For me, it is fun seeing the wave coming and to enjoy the ride.

Concerning solar, as lucky as I am here to have cheap hydropower, that same cheap electricity makes solar economically unfeasable. Two different times I have seriously looked into installing solar, an the math just doesn't work. For instance, the interest on the money needed to make about 1/4 of our power was more than the entire electric bill. On the other hand, in the sunnier southwest with it's more expensive power, solar is everywhere.

Like it or not, economics is what will drive the change.

Also, @RV8R, what is with the triple commas?

Also, @RV8R, what is with the triple commas?



Asked & Answered (April 19, 2023);

Reminds me of the joke with the hunter & the bear ,,, @Baxsie ”You are not here for the hunting are You”

 

[GaryBIS]

Right now, probably so.

Arguably, even after the introduction of the Model T, ICE vehicles were a luxury. They are still a luxury to some significant part of the world population, and even in the "rich" US, we have population segments that can't afford a car at all - ICE or EV.

Current ICE cars go from cheap to insane. EVs are generally more expensive, they generally require home chargers to be economically effective. This, by extension, require homes and that is not a given in today's world.

Additionally, the public charging infrastructure is not there yet. We are hugely behind here in Eastern Washington compared to California and even Western Washington.

So, yes, just like when ICE vehicles came out, EV early adopters will tend to be willing to spend more on the new technology vehicle.

Eventually, ICE cars, trucks, and tractors replaced all their horse powered predecessors. It was not necessarily because people became fanboys if the new tech (although there were certainly some), it was simply because the gasoline versions were cheaper.

Economics will eventually be what powers the change to widespread EV adoption. Some people will jump on EV at the first chance, some people will hang onto ICE to their last.

As EV matures, becomes cheaper and approaches the same ease of use as ICE, the largest number of consumers will choose the cheaper route and get an EV.

Yes, governments will likely tilt the scales in the direction that aligns with whatever the current policy is.

For me, it is fun seeing the wave coming and to enjoy the ride.

Concerning solar, as lucky as I am here to have cheap hydropower, that same cheap electricity makes solar economically unfeasable. Two different times I have seriously looked into installing solar, an the math just doesn't work. For instance, the interest on the money needed to make about 1/4 of our power was more than the entire electric bill. On the other hand, in the sunnier southwest with it's more expensive power, solar is everywhere.

Like it or not, economics is what will drive the change.

Also, @RV8R, what is with the triple commas?

Hi,
I think that's a good way to look at it.

The time when it makes more economic sense to go with an EV is getting pretty close.

A new Toyota RAV4 hybrid in a mid trim (XLE) AWD is $37K

A new Tesla Model Y long range dual motor is $4K9, or $41K with the $8K gov incentive.

Over the life of the car, with lower maintenance and lower fuel cost, the model Y will end up costing less than the RAV4.

Since we traded in our RAV4 hybrid (a car I liked a lot) for a Model Y, I can say that the Model Y is a much nicer car to live with on road trips - quiet, comfortable, great sound system, impressive passing performance.

A lot of people are recognizing this in that the Model Y is the best selling car in the world
And, the $26K Tesla EV is coming..

The only thing I think your analysis leaves out is that while gasoline cars replacing horses was a changeover based totally on economics, the changeover to vehicles not fueled by fossil fuels is a climate change necessity.

I think we are fortunate that electric cars not only provide a better economic and performance solution than gasoline cars, but also eliminate carbon emissions.

Gary

 

[CarKeys]

Hi,
I think that's a good way to look at it.

The time when it makes more economic sense to go with an EV is getting pretty close.

A new Toyota RAV4 hybrid in a mid trim (XLE) AWD is $37K

A new Tesla Model Y long range dual motor is $4K9, or $41K with the $8K gov incentive.

Over the life of the car, with lower maintenance and lower fuel cost, the model Y will end up costing less than the RAV4.

Since we traded in our RAV4 hybrid (a car I liked a lot) for a Model Y, I can say that the Model Y is a much nicer car to live with on road trips - quiet, comfortable, great sound system, impressive passing performance.

A lot of people are recognizing this in that the Model Y is the best selling car in the world
And, the $26K Tesla EV is coming..

The only thing I think your analysis leaves out is that while gasoline cars replacing horses was a changeover based totally on economics, the changeover to vehicles not fueled by fossil fuels is a climate change necessity.

I think we are fortunate that electric cars not only provide a better economic and performance solution than gasoline cars, but also eliminate carbon emissions.

Gary

Every Action Causes a Reaction .

Lithium mining.

 

[rjcarter3]

Hi,
I think that's a good way to look at it.

The time when it makes more economic sense to go with an EV is getting pretty close.

A new Toyota RAV4 hybrid in a mid trim (XLE) AWD is $37K

A new Tesla Model Y long range dual motor is $4K9, or $41K with the $8K gov incentive.

Over the life of the car, with lower maintenance and lower fuel cost, the model Y will end up costing less than the RAV4.

Since we traded in our RAV4 hybrid (a car I liked a lot) for a Model Y, I can say that the Model Y is a much nicer car to live with on road trips - quiet, comfortable, great sound system, impressive passing performance.

A lot of people are recognizing this in that the Model Y is the best selling car in the world
And, the $26K Tesla EV is coming..

The only thing I think your analysis leaves out is that while gasoline cars replacing horses was a changeover based totally on economics, the changeover to vehicles not fueled by fossil fuels is a climate change necessity.

I think we are fortunate that electric cars not only provide a better economic and performance solution than gasoline cars, but also eliminate carbon emissions.

Gary

The RAV4 hybrid is one of the longest range vehicles on the road. I think the only EV that will touch its 500 miles is the lucid air dream which will cost you $170k. Supposedly the REV will also do it. I expect that will also be north of $100k.

I know EV fans like to think that range is overrated, but consumer sentiment begs to differ. The refueling time differences make range more of a priority with EV's not less and your range ceiling only ever goes downhill. It's an easier trade-off to accept if you believe you're saving the planet, but for everyone else, people just don't want to wait that long for stops on road trips.

One thing that never gets discussed in the economics of it all is what will happen to the cost of gasoline as demand presumably drops from more and more EVs on the road. I'm sure that money grubbing politicians will try to tax the savings away. On the other hand, national gasoline taxes haven't been hiked in 30 years. It's just not a popular thing to do.

 

[GaryBIS]

Every Action Causes a Reaction .

Lithium mining.

View attachment 100726

Hi,

Li mining has some carbon emissions, but they turn out to be near negligible compared to the reduction in carbon emissions an EV provides...


"According to the United States Environmental Protection Agency, “the average passenger vehicle emits about 404 grams of CO2 per mile” and “about 4.6 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year”. For every single ton of lithium used in EV batteries, it would displace 190,000 tons of CO2 per annum that would otherwise be emitted by ICEVs. Every ton of lithium utilized as storage for renewable solar or wind energy would save 56,000 tons of CO2 that could be produced by fossil-fuel power plants."

The carbon emissions produced in Li mining are in part due to operating fossil fuel powered equipment - in the long run these can be replaced by electrictrically powered equipment. There are already some huge mining trucks and digging equipment operated by electric motors.


Gary