[Van Man Maine]

The front hubs of the PM are very similar to what Euro cars have used for decades, just larger.

I too am curious what went on with the clunking?

 

[Prev1]

The front hubs of the PM are very similar to what Euro cars have used for decades, just larger.

I too am curious what went on with the clunking?

Can you explain what the relevance of the similarity to the Euro car hub is?

 

[phil]

turns out the clunk is because somehow both hub/rotor alignment dowels on both sides have sheared (or been cut) off. The clunk is the rotor hitting the lug when changing between P,D,R.

So you're saying the dowels(red) were sheared off and shifting caused the hub(blue) to rotate while the rotor(pink) was stationary and there is enough slop in the rotor bolt holes to allow that movement?

 

[Prev1]

So you're saying the dowels(red) were sheared off and shifting caused the hub(blue) to rotate while the rotor(pink) was stationary and there is enough slop in the rotor bolt holes to allow that movement?

View attachment 88127

I think you are asking the same question as I was. Were the tires (rims) falling off because the lugs were loose?

 

[Van Man Maine]

Can you explain what the relevance of the similarity to the Euro car hub is?

Many Euro vehicles use a similar hub, rotor, and lug bolt design. Many of which have no dowel pins and make no noise. It seems as @Prev1 and @phil asked, lug bolts would have to be loose, very loose to allow rotor movement when shifting from P to R etc.

 

[moonfriedpotatoes]

Alright, to address what i can: el jefe, i bought the cheapo version off rockauto, rather than reman OEM. My fault, and old guy is just a patient at my clinic so not putting too much stock in what he says.

To the hub alignment dowel questions: I was thinking that there was enough slop in the lug holes in the rotor, that the rotor was clunking against the lug nuts when changing direction. After some thought (that wasn't immediately after wrestling with a somewhat taxing and definitely expensive driveway repair), I've come to the conclusion that I am... unsure. the clunk is gone. It used to occur when switching from P/D/R regardless of whether brake pedal was depressed or not. Could that have been a bit of play in rotor lug holes? yes. could it be play in the aftermarket cheapo CV axles? yes. do I know which? no. Do I think that there is some braking force applied to those alignement dowels? absolutely! how else would they shear off?

Am I going to unbutton everything, remove the jury rigged alignment dowels, button her back up and then test? likely no. If I do i will update. thanks for coming to my TED talk.

 

[moonfriedpotatoes]

Many Euro vehicles use a similar hub, rotor, and lug bolt design. Many of which have no dowel pins and make no noise. It seems as @Prev1 and @phil asked, lug bolts would have to be loose, very loose to allow rotor movement when shifting from P to R etc.

Lug bolt were on so tight that i had to buy a longer breaker bar, as my cheap 350ft/lb air impact would not budge the lug bolts and the factory tire change kit bent.

 

[moonfriedpotatoes]

Do you mean the rotor is clunking against the wheel bolts? Did you find this out by shifting gear while jacked up without the wheels on?

no, i assumed this was the case by moving the rotor against the hub and noticing the size difference between the hub threads and rotor holes. i may have jumped to conclusions, but i was tired and frustrated at the time and decided to overdo rather than under do. this was possibly unneccesary

 

[Prev1]

Alright, to address what i can: el jefe, i bought the cheapo version off rockauto, rather than reman OEM. My fault, and old guy is just a patient at my clinic so not putting too much stock in what he says.

To the hub alignment dowel questions: I was thinking that there was enough slop in the lug holes in the rotor, that the rotor was clunking against the lug nuts when changing direction. After some thought (that wasn't immediately after wrestling with a somewhat taxing and definitely expensive driveway repair), I've come to the conclusion that I am... unsure. the clunk is gone. It used to occur when switching from P/D/R regardless of whether brake pedal was depressed or not. Could that have been a bit of play in rotor lug holes? yes. could it be play in the aftermarket cheapo CV axles? yes. do I know which? no. Do I think that there is some braking force applied to those alignement dowels? absolutely! how else would they shear off?

Am I going to unbutton everything, remove the jury rigged alignment dowels, button her back up and then test? likely no. If I do i will update. thanks for coming to my TED talk.

If you do open it up... (or if I have mine off for some reason, I will test a couple things)

You may want to inspect the rims to see if they look like they were loose at any point, which may leave a wear mark from the lug bolt on the rim. I can't imagine that properly tightened lugs wouldn't also pin the rotor to the hub. Even if some way it did move, it really couldn't clunk, it would move so slowly....

I have not seen alignment pins sheer off, but perhaps applying the brakes with loose lugs could do that? To see if that is even possible, you could remove the pins and put the lugs into the rotor and hub (just loosely) without the rim, and then see if you rotate the loose rotor by hand to see if sheering the alignment pins with the rotor is mechanically possible or if the lug would prevent that from happening. I suspect that a loose rotor (probably due to loose lugs) would still not rotate enough to sheer the pins. Maybe deform them, but sheer them? Seems unlikely, but until you try it, I'm just guessing.

If you take it apart, please take some pictures.

Also, I understand about the over-torgue situation. I have over-tightened every bolt or lug I have ever installed, except where it called for a torgue setting in a specific situation. I know this because after 48 years of tightening automotive parts, I started using a torgue wrench religiously, even on my oil pan drain bolt (since they do occasionally strip).

Looking forward to learning more about your situation at some point, the good news is - you fixed it! No more clunking.

 

[el Jefe]

If you do open it up... (or if I have mine off for some reason, I will test a couple things)

You may want to inspect the rims to see if they look like they were loose at any point, which may leave a wear mark from the lug bolt on the rim. I can't imagine that properly tightened lugs wouldn't also pin the rotor to the hub. Even if some way it did move, it really couldn't clunk, it would move so slowly....

I have not seen alignment pins sheer off, but perhaps applying the brakes with loose lugs could do that? To see if that is even possible, you could remove the pins and put the lugs into the rotor and hub (just loosely) without the rim, and then see if you rotate the loose rotor by hand to see if sheering the alignment pins with the rotor is mechanically possible or if the lug would prevent that from happening. I suspect that a loose rotor (probably due to loose lugs) would still not rotate enough to sheer the pins. Maybe deform them, but sheer them? Seems unlikely, but until you try it, I'm just guessing.

If you take it apart, please take some pictures.

Also, I understand about the over-torgue situation. I have over-tightened every bolt or lug I have ever installed, except where it called for a torgue setting in a specific situation. I know this because after 48 years of tightening automotive parts, I started using a torgue wrench religiously, even on my oil pan drain bolt (since they do occasionally strip).

Looking forward to learning more about your situation at some point, the good news is - you fixed it! No more clunking.

Just a wild guess, after all the work that was performed, but I would be taking a look at the motor/transmission mounts. Still doesn't explain how the clunk is now gone.

 

[Prev1]

Just a wild guess, after all the work that was performed, but I would be taking a look at the motor/transmission mounts. Still doesn't explain how the clunk is now gone.

Or how the pins got sheared.

 

[el Jefe]

Or how the pins got sheared.

Strange, strange indeed. Somewhere down the line who worked on those wheels/assembly, buggered those pins, knocked them off and said, "good enough, send it".
I could imagine someone trying to fit aftermarket wheels. Locating pins may not have been in the proper spot. Collateral casualty.

 

[mcneill78@windstream.net]

Had my driver side CV axle go out 5 days ago at 105K miles. It went from no signs of problem to coming disconnected from the hub side and falling down in about 8 miles! It started as a vibration similar to road joints and got very noticable in 2 miles, pulled over, checked the boots, then limped 6 miles to a a repair shop at under 40 mph, it was really bad on right hand turns, went away on left.

I replaced the passenger side around 60K. It was a long time between occasional vibrations at the right speed, incline and turning before I replaced it, maybe 5k miles. I abuse the van on dirt roads alot but was surprised in how quick it failed on the drivers side.

The failure mode was likely a retaining ring on the hub end but never was able to prove it, the boots on both sides were intact until the hub side pulled apart on a somewhat tight left turn in the parking lot.

Finally, the ball joint connector on the hub is hard to clear the lower control arm (even with torsion bar unbolted) so I undid the top three nuts on the ball joint since you only need about 1 inch to clear those compared to nearly 3 on the bottom when I replaced the passenger side CV.

 

[moonfriedpotatoes]

ya it's all strange. Motor and tranny mounts were inspected by much more reputable tranny shop, they gave green light (these were the dudes who mentioned that aftermarket CV splines were a mm or two off).

I'm just glad it's fixed. Now i can have my welder beef up the hitch receiver so I can haul my bush pig around with gusto! If I get the front end apart again in the near future, I will try to investigate more. Thanks for all the input everyone

 

[Bigphotog]

Hey all. Last winter I rebuild my front end with new ball joints, struts, lift kit. Tie rods were new, and, though the CV axle was on its way out, the part was unobtainable. All went well, drove great for a few thousand miles.

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago. Finally got the CV axles installed, but by a shop this time. Seemed ok, no issues for 100 miles or so. Then it starts clunking when starting from a stop under load after shifting out of P, D, or N.

Took it back to the shop, they are saying tranny. Having just driven the fully loaded camper 1500miles on road trip with no slipping, grindign etc, I am doubtful. The shop wants me to take it to a tranny place to get a second opinion, and said that they would only work on hubs or cv if they had the parts.

I watched under the vehicle while they shifted and placed the engine under load. Noticeable movement from motor and tranny, but also the clunk definitely coming from hubs. CV axles confirmed by myself and Mechanix to be correct part and fitment.

Thoughts? Any experience with this?

I used to build a lot of racing suspensions for rally cars and the biggest problem is the degree of angle the CV joint is in. I’ve looked at the kits and there nicely done. but from my experience anything over a 1.5 lift will promote premature deterioration in the CV joints.
Suspension only lifts ate a easy and cheap way to get bigger wheels on a vehicle. If you look at real race vehicles there fenders are exaggerated to allow travel and larger/taller sized wheel tire combos.
If you put a high suspension lift on a CV joint vehicle it will always be operating in an extended angle position that will put stress on the CV joint.
I’ve been out of the business for a long time now and things might’ve changed but from what I can see with my own research they haven’t.

 

[MechMind]

I used to build a lot of racing suspensions for rally cars and the biggest problem is the degree of angle the CV joint is in. I’ve looked at the kits and there nicely done. but from my experience anything over a 1.5 lift will promote premature deterioration in the CV joints.
Suspension only lifts ate a easy and cheap way to get bigger wheels on a vehicle. If you look at real race vehicles there fenders are exaggerated to allow travel and larger/taller sized wheel tire combos.
If you put a high suspension lift on a CV joint vehicle it will always be operating in an extended angle position that will put stress on the CV joint.
I’ve been out of the business for a long time now and things might’ve changed but from what I can see with my own research they haven’t.

I tried the 1.5" left for a brief period and my CV joints did not like them. I had heard the warning but I like to learn the hard way. I tried the OEM axles and the AAR design trakmotive. The lift fit does not work well with either. Maybe no issues immediately but it will definitely strain all the parts much much quicker. Needless to ssay i have a 1.5" lift kit for sale , hell ill give it awat free if someone wants to pay for shipping

 

[MechMind]

I used trakmotive AAR design CV axles with no issues, they are not the highest of quality it seems but still no issues