Ram Promaster Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
727 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Last autumn, "Should I get a diesel or a gas engine" was my primary concern. Since I have a tendency to bring my personal problems to a world wide level ;), I asked a whole bunch of people what were their toughs on the subject.

In the process, I asked feedback on the Iveco diesel to my long time windsurfing forum friends from France (directwind.com). I got surprising answers.

They said it was a great motor, but also added I was lucky that I could get a gas engine for that type of vehicle.

For one thing, the price of diesel is not as attractive as it used to be, just like America. They also had concerns on durability of diesel motors nowadays. According to them, they are not as durable and maintenance free like they used to be.

They also envied the top speed and accelerations that a V6 3.6L would give me.

In summary, if they were me, they would go with gas motor, specially considering the price of gas in America.

Before asking them, I was leaning towards a gas motor. Their opinion sealed my decision.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
i struggled with the same question. I was going to wait for the diesel but then realized the initial additional cost and more expensive service outweighed any advantage. Also diesel prices entered into the equation.

Then I thought even if the diesel lasted for 300,00 miles, what advantage is there if the rest of the vehicle is falling apart by then.

I also looked at the older Sprinters on the road and many of the bodies looked trashed after 100, 000 or so miles.

Finally, what made me decide on the gas engine was the fact that I could get it now when I needed it.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
727 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
i struggled with the same question. I was going to wait for the diesel but then realized the initial additional cost and more expensive service outweighed any advantage. Also diesel prices entered into the equation.

Then I thought even if the diesel lasted for 300,00 miles, what advantage is there if the rest of the vehicle is falling apart by then.

I also looked at the older Sprinters on the road and many of the bodies looked trashed after 100, 000 or so miles.

Finally, what made me decide on the gas engine was the fact that I could get it now when I needed it.
My main reason for going gas was service. For some strange reason, every time I have a car problem, it happens in Wyoming when I am driving to The Columbia Gorge. I tough it would be easier to find a guy who ca service a Pentastar than a Iveco diesel.


For the Dodge Sprinter rust problem (a major problem in Quebec), you'll get two different stories depending who you talk to.

The Mercedez-Benz people will tell you that the problem was Dodge, that was building lousy Sprinters.

The Dodge people will tell you that it was Mercedez-Benz that didn't adapt their Sprinter for the North American climate.

But it think that Mercedez-Benz has now fixed the problem, I haven't seen any MB's Strinters with a rust problem so far.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,003 Posts
In my opinion the differences between diesel (actually defined as CI for compression ignition) and gasoline-type engines (defined as SI for spark ignition) have changed a lot over the last few decades, and even more in the last ten years, making many of the advantages and disadvantages of each less pronounced than in the past.


I wrote an entire page of how the differences have been blurred by advances in both gasoline and Diesel engines, but lost it due to being timed out while typing with one finger on iPad. Probably for the best.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,061 Posts
I was for the diesel ,but delay and the so called California pollution stuff scared me
off and order 159 gasser. Should be here at the end of the month.

If I was out somewhere and tried to idle it to keep warm in the winter when it is -30c
and then would clog up because of the pollution control and go into a limp mode.

Chance just type in a create mail or something like that,then paste on the forum.
I have been timed out to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
My main reason for going gas was service. For some strange reason, every time I have a car problem, it happens in Wyoming when I am driving to The Columbia Gorge. I tough it would be easier to find a guy who ca service a Pentastar than a Iveco diesel.


For the Dodge Sprinter rust problem (a major problem in Quebec), you'll get two different stories depending who you talk to.

The Mercedez-Benz people will tell you that the problem was Dodge, that was building lousy Sprinters.

The Dodge people will tell you that it was Mercedez-Benz that didn't adapt their Sprinter for the North American climate.

But it think that Mercedez-Benz has now fixed the problem, I haven't seen any MB's Strinters with a rust problem so far.
GuyT, not so sure mercedes has it figured out yet. Our 2010 sprinter is starting to show signs of rust. Our 2004 basically had the rear window explode as there is nothing left holding it in place. Rust is the reason we got a new PM and not sprinter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
180 Posts
After 9 years in a diesel I'm ready for gas. Tired of finding a diesel pump. No more complicated than that. The mileage bump is nice, but it takes hundreds of thousands of miles for that to pay off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
My main reason for going gas was service. For some strange reason, every time I have a car problem, it happens in Wyoming when I am driving to The Columbia Gorge. I tough it would be easier to find a guy who ca service a Pentastar than a Iveco diesel.


For the Dodge Sprinter rust problem (a major problem in Quebec), you'll get two different stories depending who you talk to.

The Mercedez-Benz people will tell you that the problem was Dodge, that was building lousy Sprinters.

The Dodge people will tell you that it was Mercedez-Benz that didn't adapt their Sprinter for the North American climate.

But it think that Mercedez-Benz has now fixed the problem, I haven't seen any MB's Strinters with a rust problem so far.
Dodge never built any Sprinters. WHERE did they come up with that crap? Mercedes has built ALL the Sprinters of all 3 brands that have been sold in North America, Dodge, Freightliner & Mercedes.
There are 2 manufacturing plants that always have supplied the Sprinter to the USA & Canada. Dusseldorf & Ludwigsfelde in Germany. The cargo vans arrive as kits in the USA, and are reassembled at Ladson, SC. Canada gets all of theirs straight off the boat to the dealers.

The newer 2007 on up NCV3 Sprinter goes through a full body dip into a primer vat which the earlier model did not, and has a much more extensive use of rust proofing sprays & waxes. The problem with the newer model is surface rust that shows up on the roof seams and around the windows. then spreads under the paint.....

Now back to the regularly scheduled ProMaster subject
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
I will be considering gas vs deisel in my future PM which will be multi use (business/toy hauler/stealth RV). I will likely only put 10k miles per yr but I live at 3500 ft and most of my driving will be into the mountains- pass level 5600 ft. From what I hear, the gas engines mileage suffer more on inclines and at altitude than deisel. Is it enough to offset the cost difference with my relatively low mileage?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
I'm one of those who is waiting for the PM diesel to make an appearance before making a final purchase decision on that brand or possibly the Ford when than is available. I have driven diesels over the last 20 years. In fact, I have an Ecodiesel on order to replace my 2500 duramax. I'll take a diesel over a gas job any day. Nothing like the torque curve and fuel mileage in comparison to gas powered.

My work vehicle as of right now is a '03 Sprinter. There is truth to the rust issues the early year ones had. I'm having that currently taken care of at a local body shop. There's 130k miles on it now with more to be had, so I want to keep it as long as possible. Besides, 25 to 26 mpg fully loaded is hard to replicate by any other vehicle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
If anyone is thinking about getting a diesel based on 'better mileage' they must take into consideration how much you are driving each year. This spreadsheet is based on todays fuel cost at my local station that sells both fuels. This doesn't factor in oil changes or DEF.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,003 Posts
I will be considering gas vs deisel in my future PM which will be multi use (business/toy hauler/stealth RV). I will likely only put 10k miles per yr but I live at 3500 ft and most of my driving will be into the mountains- pass level 5600 ft. From what I hear, the gas engines mileage suffer more on inclines and at altitude than deisel. Is it enough to offset the cost difference with my relatively low mileage?
Non-turbo gasoline engines (naturally aspirated) lose more power than a turbo diesel due to elevation. That's really because of comparing turbo versus non-turbo, not because of diesel versus gasoline. A Diesel engine without turbo (there are not many still used for vehicle drive trains but can be found in smaller applications like generators and such) would lose significant power too.

Because the ProMaster gasoline engine has much more power than the diesel, even if derated for 5,600 feet elevation, it will have about the same power or a little higher. Keep in mind that power comes at a high RPM so you must be willing to use the full RPM range or the power won't be there.

I've never seen where gas engines' mileage suffers more on inclines or elevation, not as a percent anyway. No doubt gas loses maximum power, but both gasoline and diesel have to work equally harder to go up inclines. Don't know why it would affect mileage differently. Not significantly anyway.

May sound weird, but I've gotten the highest MPG in gasoline RVs while driving around Colorado and Grand Canyon areas. Although at higher elevation it was probably due to slower speeds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
If anyone is thinking about getting a diesel based on 'better mileage' they must take into consideration how much you are driving each year. This spreadsheet is based on todays fuel cost at my local station that sells both fuels. This doesn't factor in oil changes or DEF.

great chart:cool:, how ever, if you factor in the cost of a diesel (maintance) plus the Intial cost of the engine. The advantage goes to the gas engine.

I have 04 Sprinter with over a 500,000 miles on her:D, and I average about 23 MPG annually. and run about 60,000 miles a year. Unless a diesel gets over 30 MPG, I will never own another diesel again:(. The maintance and waiting for parts and finding a mechanic who works on diesels are the real cost factors. EGR valve, Glow plugs Injectors and turbo. right their is over $15,000 in parts and labor:eek::eek:.


since 06 I have put over $40,000.00 in maintance and repairs
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
bbird, that's enough to have bought a whole new van, but I understand there wasn't anything out there compared to the Sprinter till this year.
Personally I think once Ford gets cranked up on the Transit in Kansas City, (happening right now), that they are going to fly off the lots compared to the PM & Sprinter.
Don't know about the Transit diesel though as it's not available on a couple of the chassis you'd think it would be. At least initially....we'll see
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
great chart:cool:, how ever, if you factor in the cost of a diesel (maintance) plus the Intial cost of the engine. The advantage goes to the gas engine.

I have 04 Sprinter with over a 500,000 miles on her:D, and I average about 23 MPG annually. and run about 60,000 miles a year. Unless a diesel gets over 30 MPG, I will never own another diesel again:(. The maintance and waiting for parts and finding a mechanic who works on diesels are the real cost factors. EGR valve, Glow plugs Injectors and turbo. right their is over $15,000 in parts and labor:eek::eek:.


since 06 I have put over $40,000.00 in maintance and repairs
Personally, the Sprinter I drive is the best vehicle I have ever owned. I just don't feel like paying 40k for a new cargo van. That's why I'm interested in a diesel PM.

I'm curious what other vehicle would have been able to survive 500k miles. That's outstanding survivability.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
727 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
If anyone is thinking about getting a diesel based on 'better mileage' they must take into consideration how much you are driving each year. This spreadsheet is based on todays fuel cost at my local station that sells both fuels. This doesn't factor in oil changes or DEF.
Great tool, miked. From that spreadsheet, I figured it would have take me 8 years to break it even with a diesel motor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
great chart:cool:, how ever, if you factor in the cost of a diesel (maintance) plus the Intial cost of the engine. The advantage goes to the gas engine.

I have 04 Sprinter with over a 500,000 miles on her:D, and I average about 23 MPG annually. and run about 60,000 miles a year. Unless a diesel gets over 30 MPG, I will never own another diesel again:(. The maintance and waiting for parts and finding a mechanic who works on diesels are the real cost factors. EGR valve, Glow plugs Injectors and turbo. right their is over $15,000 in parts and labor:eek::eek:.


since 06 I have put over $40,000.00 in maintance and repairs
bbird, that was exactly my point that the gasser, no matter how you look at it unless you drive all day is the way to go. I only do 30,000 miles/year so I bought the gasser.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Personally, the Sprinter I drive is the best vehicle I have ever owned. I just don't feel like paying 40k for a new cargo van. That's why I'm interested in a diesel PM.

I'm curious what other vehicle would have been able to survive 500k miles. That's outstanding survivability.

Part of the reason for me is , I haul light weight, 10% of my freight is over 2,000 Lbs. Also I run Mobil 1 synthetic once I hit 100,000 miles

But I have also learned gas motors can go a lot longer than 10 years ago, my fellow worker hit 600,000 miles before the had gasket went:eek:. and he probably invesed half what I did:cool:

like a lot of people I am waiting for the Ford Transit, and a few years when drivers on this forum hit the 100.000 mile mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
I ordered a gas Promaster because after driving diesels for the past 15 years I figured that I don't need one. At first I drove a lot more then I do now. It is only 6 miles to my shop and in winter my 05 Sprinter never fully warms up and this isn't good for the engine, or me. Also I would really like to see how that robotic transmission works out. Plus, when I bought my first diesel, the price of diesel fuel went up. My friends ribbed me about that, "gee, you had to go and buy a diesel and ruin it for everybody". Now that I'm buying a gas engine PM,the price of diesel will go back down.;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Non-turbo gasoline engines (naturally aspirated) lose more power than a turbo diesel due to elevation. That's really because of comparing turbo versus non-turbo, not because of diesel versus gasoline. A Diesel engine without turbo (there are not many still used for vehicle drive trains but can be found in smaller applications like generators and such) would lose significant power too.

Because the ProMaster gasoline engine has much more power than the diesel, even if derated for 5,600 feet elevation, it will have about the same power or a little higher. Keep in mind that power comes at a high RPM so you must be willing to use the full RPM range or the power won't be there.

I've never seen where gas engines' mileage suffers more on inclines or elevation, not as a percent anyway. No doubt gas loses maximum power, but both gasoline and diesel have to work equally harder to go up inclines. Don't know why it would affect mileage differently. Not significantly anyway.

May sound weird, but I've gotten the highest MPG in gasoline RVs while driving around Colorado and Grand Canyon areas. Although at higher elevation it was probably due to slower speeds.
I did see some reference in PM drivers who noted that up shifting occurred on even mild inclines, negatively affecting mileage due to higher RPMS...anyway, judging by other responses, maybe gas is way to go...
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top