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Discussion Starter #1
Went today for test drive number two. Tried getting it for a couple hours but they wouldn't let me. I had friends being able to take there new vehicles all day before they bought. Anyway I took it for a half hour to make sure that's what I wanted. Main consideration was the seats. They were comfy but I noticed one with a factory bulk head and there's no room to recline or put the seat back. Everyone was right about that. I could drive it that way cause I'm only 5'8" but wouldn't be able to recline it far. I have back issues so I guess it doesn't matter. Also noticed the windows do not roll down all the way. I like the pm a lot. Btw it was a 159" high top in white with no windows, basic stereo, cruise and fog lights. Price was 35 grand out the door so I asked how much for a pm with the options I want. I can get the same van in black with the uconnect 5.0 and nav, heated seats, aluminum wheels and steering wheel controls for like 500 more. So I may be ordering on here in the next week or so. I just hope it gets at least 15 mpg once I'm loaded with shelving, ladders and materials. Wish I could hold off for the diesel version too but I'm in a pinch and need a new work vehicle now.
 

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How far down do the windows stop?

After seeing the PM and getting some real world first hand experience of it, would you say you would get it or continue shopping around?
 

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There is about 8" of glass showing when there down. The only thing that's making my decision is if I wanna wait for the diesel motor. I'd be happy with gas but prob much happier with diesel. I have a sprinter diesel and owned many diesel trucks. Can't beat the power, trq and mpg with them
 

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There is about 8" of glass showing when there down. The only thing that's making my decision is if I wanna wait for the diesel motor. I'd be happy with gas but prob much happier with diesel. I have a sprinter diesel and owned many diesel trucks. Can't beat the power, trq and mpg with them
From an objective standpoint, the gasoline ProMaster has more "power" than the diesel option. A lot more in fact. The diesel's torque is rated slightly higher but not by much. No doubt MPG will favor the diesel by a significant amount. I may be wrong, but expect fuel economy to be the diesel's main advantage when rated objectively. Of course, objectivity often has little to do with liking or wanting something.
 

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Jeff, do you currently have a T1N, 2006 & before, or an NCV3 2007 on up Sprinter? Like to hear which and the difference in the driving "feel" between the 2.
As I statdin another thread here, the Promaster and the T1N Sprinter look to have the same seating, steering wheel angle setups.

Are they not taking orders for the diesel yet?
 

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Jeff you better really buy a vehicle that you will not regret down the road.
That is a lot of money to spend and I would not buy because of excitement
or desperation (compulsive shopping).
If deep down inside you feel you need the diesel, I'd go for that.
How long would you plan on keeping it?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I have a 04 t1n and yes it's similar to the pm as far as seating and steering angle. My sprinter seats can slide back further with my bulkhead in and the seat has many more position arrangements. I would say the pm feels better with the steering wheel tho. The sprinters steering wheel is more upright if you will. No tilt or telescoping.
I know diesel will have better mpg but I'm trying to out way the cost difference between the two. For instance oil changes on the sprinter is like 100 bucks. Maintenance on diesels cost way more. Fuel also cost more so would it really be worth it.
 

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From an objective standpoint, the gasoline ProMaster has more "power" than the diesel option. A lot more in fact. The diesel's torque is rated slightly higher but not by much. No doubt MPG will favor the diesel by a significant amount. I may be wrong, but expect fuel economy to be the diesel's main advantage when rated objectively. Of course, objectivity often has little to do with liking or wanting something.
Diesels power comes from trq at low rpms. Even tho the gas gas higher hp numbers I bet the diesel will have more power.
 

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At current fuel costs here (Minneapolis) with gas @ $3/gallon & diesel @ $3.75/gallon for 15,000 miles the fuel costs are the same with diesel achieving 25 MPG & gas 20 MPG. I don't know if those are realistic MPG figures but it does make one wonder if diesel is a good option for the average buyer? The payback is a very long one when you consider the higher initial cost, maintenance, & higher fuel cost of diesel.
The reading I have done indicates that the gas/diesel price differential may stay like it is for some time as the refineries can sell diesel to Europe at a premium while the domestic gasoline demand is not increasing while the supply is.
 

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Diesels power comes from trq at low rpms. Even tho the gas gas higher hp numbers I bet the diesel will have more power.
Torque is not a measure of power and should not be confused as such. Torque is torque no matter what units are used to quantify the rating, but it's never a measure of power. Horsepower on the other hand is a measure of power. So are watts, kilowatts, and so on. Engine ratings in Europe for example use different units like kilowatts for power and newton-meters for torque but they also keep them separate because they describe very different things.

To your point, we don't have to bet because RAM engineers already settle which engine is more powerful for us. One has a power rating of 174 and the other 280. It's not even close.

Please don't read this as trying to make a case for the gasoline engine because I'm not. The diesel is beefier and may last a lot longer. It also has a higher GCWR which says a lot. But it is not more "powerful".
 

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yea but torque moves loads, I think thats whats being referred to as "power". Lightweight uses high horsepower/low torque application. Think F1 car. Heavy Duty applications use lower HP/high torque. Think 18 wheeler...
 

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Torque is not a measure of power and should not be confused as such. Torque is torque no matter what units are used to quantify the rating, but it's never a measure of power. Horsepower on the other hand is a measure of power. So are watts, kilowatts, and so on. Engine ratings in Europe for example use different units like kilowatts for power and newton-meters for torque but they also keep them separate because they describe very different things.

To your point, we don't have to bet because RAM engineers already settle which engine is more powerful for us. One has a power rating of 174 and the other 280. It's not even close.

Please don't read this as trying to make a case for the gasoline engine because I'm not. The diesel is beefier and may last a lot longer. It also has a higher GCWR which says a lot. But it is not more "powerful".
Horsepower is simply torque multiplied by RPM...so at lower revolutions the diesel engine will FEEL more powerful. The gas engine at 2000 rpm's may produce 120 lbs per ft but the diesel may produce 240 at the same rpm making it FEEL more powerful.

When I take my track car to the dyno he measures torque and calculates horsepower.
 

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yea but torque moves loads, I think thats whats being referred to as "power". Lightweight uses high horsepower/low torque application. Think F1 car. Heavy Duty applications use lower HP/high torque. Think 18 wheeler...
That's not correct use of word "power" as defined for technical applications. Obviously I understand exactly what people mean by power even when used in a subjective and very non-technical manner. To some drivers Diesel engines feel stronger yet objective testing often show slower acceleration or hill climbing speed.

Power, or horsepower, takes torque into account. It's already figured into equation. A torque number alone, high or low, doesn't say much of any real use. It works for marketing to sell vehicles but by itself doesn't say much as to how much work an engine can perform in a given amount of time.

The often quoted 18-wheeler torque vs HP example is not a good one in my opinion. Data is taken out of context. If an 18 wheeler had a more powerful turbine engine with a fraction of the torque it would still climb, pull, and accelerate faster. That's where correct gearing comes in.
 

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....cut.....

When I take my track car to the dyno he measures torque and calculates horsepower.
He measures torque AND RPM. Both are required to calculate power.

What many don't get is that 300 lb-ft at 1500 RPM is only able to do half as much as 300 lb-ft at 3000 RPM.

Gasoline engines that can spin faster can thus use a lower gear at same vehicle speed. That results in more torque at driven wheels. That's the value of defining power.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I think the pm would take my sprinter in a race but my sprinter definitely has more power throughout its while rpm range without a doubt.
 

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Chance is right, torque isn't power. But, torque is more analogous to acceleration.

Consider the facts, which are hard to discern as FIAT really hasn't published HP & Torque curves for the Ducato or Promaster. What we can do though, is look through FIAT's divisions to see where the 3.0l diesel is used elsewhere and use them for a comparison.

Someone on allpar linked to this Iveco curve for the 3.0 diesel:


Also, on FIAT Power Train site, there are similar curves for different Euro emissions classes of the 3.0 liter diesel:






And now compare with the 3.6 Pentastar gasoline engine:




No doubt about it, the Pentastar V6 is about as good as it can be without a turbo. It makes 250lb. ft of torque almost throughout it's entire rev range.

Consider this though, the FIAT 3.0 diesel (180 Multijet in FIAT markets), consistently makes 300lb. ft. til 3000 rpm. This is because it has a variable inlet turbo.

Also the diesel makes that peak torque sooner at somewhere around 1250rpm (right off idle) vs. 2000rpm of the Pentastar. 750 revs may not seem a lot, but that is almost 40% sooner.

That means that the diesel has more HP than the pentastar until you get to 3000 rpm

I think that translates to the diesel having better acceleration in urban traffic, and being able to lug up mountains without downshifting as much - at normal driving speeds.

I can see the Pentastar being better at high speed, long highway uphill grades, and flat out drags because it can use it's rev range, but it will have to be at the expense of high rpm and fuel efficiency.

When you think about it, most engines are running at lower rpm's at highway speeds so I don't think the diesel is a disadvantage at all.

But the performance of the two engines seem so close, it really comes back to the cost of diesel in your area.

For instance, if we go with mileages that we have been hearing about 17-18mpg for the gasoline, and 25mpg for the diesel, using the following link for fuel costs, I get the following results:
http://fuelgaugereport.aaa.com/

Pentastar = 5.45 mi/$ @18mpg & regular gas (Oregon @$3.300/gal.)
Diesel 3.0 = 6.46 mi./$ @25mpg (Oregon @3.876/gal.)

That's a difference of 1.01mi./$

So on a per mile basis, the diesel will pay for itself in only 4000 miles, a real bargain that would negate any performance disadvantage in my book.

He measures torque AND RPM. Both are required to calculate power.

What many don't get is that 300 lb-ft at 1500 RPM is only able to do half as much as 300 lb-ft at 3000 RPM.

Gasoline engines that can spin faster can thus use a lower gear at same vehicle speed. That results in more torque at driven wheels. That's the value of defining power.
 

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.....cut......

But the performance of the two engines seem so close, it really comes back to the cost of diesel in your area.

For instance, if we go with mileages that we have been hearing about 17-18mpg for the gasoline, and 25mpg for the diesel, using the following link for fuel costs, I get the following results:
http://fuelgaugereport.aaa.com/

Pentastar = 5.45 mi/$ @18mpg & regular gas (Oregon @$3.300/gal.)
Diesel 3.0 = 6.46 mi./$ @25mpg (Oregon @3.876/gal.)

That's a difference of 1.01mi./$

So on a per mile basis, the diesel will pay for itself in only 4000 miles, a real bargain that would negate any performance disadvantage in my book.
Sorry Keith, but fuel savings are no where close to that. You would only save a little over $100 in 4000 miles.

4000 miles / 18 MPG = 222 gallons and at $3.3/gallon = $733

4000 miles / 25 MPG = 160 gallons and at $3.876/gallon = $620

Fuel savings are only $113 over 4000 miles.
 

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BTW, I think what your estimate actually shows is that if you spent $4000 in fuel, you'd get an extra 4000 miles "free" out of the diesel. I'm not entirely sure because I didn't do the math but suspect that's the way it would work out.
 

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I think the pm would take my sprinter in a race but my sprinter definitely has more power throughout its while rpm range without a doubt.
Your perception makes sense based on the way most drivers operate their vehicle. The PM has more power but the driver would have to be willing to put his foot down and let the transmission shift down as needed. If we did the PM would outrun any Sprinter that was equally loaded without difficulty.

But in order to improve fuel economy with a gasoline engine, engineers have to gear the vehicle so that the engine is working "harder", or closer to its peak torque at that given RPM. This means the engine has less reserve "power" at that instant. If the driver wants to accelerate fast or climb a hill at a faster speed than a Sprinter, he/she has to be willing to let the engine downshift a gear or two and rev up to the 5000 to 6000 RPM range. And most of us don't like to do that for numerous reasons.

Like Keith showed in curves above, the PM has a lot more "peak" power. Unfortunately we as drivers have to get used to the idea that if we want to tap that power we have to change our driving style and or expectations. A NA gasoline engine does not have the same characteristics of a turbo diesel.
 
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