[BillMac]

Been lurking around the board the last few days after being without my Diesel PM for 5 weeks for pretty much every issue discussed on this forum. CEL,Limp mode, lots of dealers throwing parts at it. Current shop has had it 5 weeks, no resolution. Been thru the usual routine, Called Customer care and started a "Case" and made daily calls. Finally got word today a replacement is approved so going to hive it another try. Hoping the issues are resolved on later production runs as the PM really fits my needs better then the other options.
I appreciate being able to read others experiences and used a few things in my meeting this week prior to getting the replacement approved. Even after 35+ years in the Automotive industry there is always something even if it's just a tidbit that will help.

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

Sorry about the hassle but the fact you are going the same route seems to be saying you liked the vehicle. BTW would you post up the build date on the failed vehicle please? Dealers who throw parts at these diesels are probably not solving the issue as it would appear the issue is software, although there must be bad components out there. An early report was there were sensor wires reversed in production which will never get fixed with parts or software. Without a fixed vehicle it will never be known what was really wrong with your van. So far we have not had any serious issues reported on diesels built in Nov 2014 or later so your new van should be fine.

 

[BillMac]

I'll have to go back and check on the date code next week when I go order the replacement. Guessing it's early 2015 as I purchased it right off the deliver truck in March. I agree with your Parts thrower statement, and had listed a more detailed response in a different thread before realizing I needed one in this thread first. I've been heavily involved in the Automotive world for a long time. Nothing yet has happen on my rig with parts replacement that even had a chance of a repair. Dealers just trying to get the techs paid with parts replacements. My book strictly a programming issue or wiring IE bad ground or possibly the crossed wires you mention.
Good news is with the replacement I get to order a few goodies that would have been nice to have. Navigation and the 6 way seats, might go for the 136 instead of e shorty 118 too. I use the van for work and hauling MX bikes, 118 hauls three MX bikes easy, but with the 136 I figure I can throw in a Scooter too

 

[motorsailor]

There have been several of these types of posts. What keeps running through my mind is dealer competence. A dealer that works on Chrysler and Dodge cars and has Ram vans as a sign line is not going to have a trained Ram Promaster diesel mechanic. I know this diesel is complex with its pollution control, but things should be able to be diagnosed and fixed with a competent mechanic. Just saying.

 

[BillMac]

Went back to the dealer and took a quick look, 12-14 is the Mfg date on my Diesel. Sounds like we'll have to bump the good made after date a month or two moving forward

 

[BillMac]

As a former Parts and Service director for this dealer group where my PM has been residing for the last 5 weeks(and counting) I won't disagree with you Motorsailor. Very hard to find the combination of a Technician who can Diagnos and a Mechanic that can repair these days. Trade Schools are a joke in over 20 years of Service management and dozens on UTI type school grads I kept only two. The trades are just no longer taught in High Schools with few exceptions. Occasionally there are specialty Schools at the 10-12 Grade level that do a decent job in training and I've been fortunate to teach and work with Mentor programs there. Still they produce few talented and motivated Techs/Mechanics. University level engineering programs for Electrical and Mechanical grads that focus on Automotive just don't generate dealer level techs, they all want to be factory engineers even though a good Dealer lead tech can easily make a 6 figure income. Parts changers are the norm now, follow the diagnostic charts and that leads to the classic "Replace with known good or new part". Very frustrating for all involved from the techs, management and vehicle owners and with the manufacturers having recourse thru parts suppliers they just don't care.
For me the process of a replacement without going thru the Lemon law BS is relatively easy (although still a pain in the rear)as I have plenty of connections still and even some insider info from a couple of this University grads I know and mentored a few years back that now work for Chrysler corp.

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

I just got a CEL code P 0305 on my F150. Misfire cyl5. Could be spark plug, coil over plug failure, perhaps others. Having experience I bought the OE COP and in 15 minutes was running fine. EGR code on this diesel engine will not be cured by changing out the EGR valve according to the experience of posters here. Experience with these diesels will come and the techs will get better and the corporate tech referrals will point the field workers to solutions. Perhaps we need to create a log of the techs, dealers, and sources that are solving the issues now.

 

[Chance]

Mechanical engineers are not trained to be mechanics. Obviously if you start with a person who can learn thermodynamics, solve heat transfer problems, etc... then I'd guess there is a higher probability to learn how to fix a car too.

As vehicles get more complex, there will be fewer people who have the ability to learn enough to fix them efficiently. If new diesels become enough of a PITA to own, people will simply stop buying them until engineers find a way to improve and/or simplify their operation to reduce problems.

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

Chance,
I maintain the technology for diesels is not really more complex than our cars which have become incredibly reliable and the diesels will too. I see the glass as getting filled since the new diesel standards have recently been enacted and a year or so is needed to get to the complete reliability like cars have. It is a similar process only happening 25 years after cars.
Experience is altogether another thing. Each of us needs to develop the experiences to bring our own level up to the task. Training and education is a part of it but there is much more. If my Ram dealer does not have someone to understand what is going on and involved in fixing it I loose. With about 6 months of the Diesel there are going to be lots of dealers where the expertise is lacking. Sad. The vehicle may not be to blame.

 

[Bconno]

I just got a CEL code P 0305 on my F150. Misfire cyl5. Could be spark plug, coil over plug failure, perhaps others. Having experience I bought the OE COP and in 15 minutes was running fine. EGR code on this diesel engine will not be cured by changing out the EGR valve according to the experience of posters here. Experience with these diesels will come and the techs will get better and the corporate tech referrals will point the field workers to solutions. Perhaps we need to create a log of the techs, dealers, and sources that are solving the issues now.

That may not be true RD, mine had the EGR replaced after which I took a cross country trip. I did get a CEL, an ETC light, and a check hill assist message. The CEL stayed on for five days then went out and hasn't come back on since. Not sure what the codes were for but I have had nothing since then.

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

That may not be true RD, mine had the EGR replaced after which I took a cross country trip. I did get a CEL, an ETC light, and a check hill assist message. The CEL stayed on for five days then went out and hasn't come back on since. Not sure what the codes were for but I have had nothing since then.

Yes I agree, but we can't know for sure as several OP's have said they got EGR codes and changing out the EGR valve took a long while, did not fix the problem and never were resolved until a flash of the computer happened. We can't know for sure if yours was the EGR although I am willing to say it was. The others got CELs later that went away by themselves. Might yours have gone away if the code was cleared and you drove it? Have you had the latest computer update done? It seems like the computer learns and the codes stop if no components are changed. I am trying to see patterns so please don't flame me for thinking.

 

[BillMac]

Accurate statements and thoughts from all, Engineers are not Tecchs, Techs will learn on the job and current ie:new Deisel technology is really not new. I can still remember working thru the frustrations of engineers and techs not long ago when EGR, catalytic and other technologies were mandated in the heavy Deisel market. Now not all but many of those issues are resolved and techs now quickly and easily can Diagnos and repair fuel and emission related problems in that market. Those of us willing to purchase a vehicle that is new to our market or new overall will always feel the pain of the learning curve at dealerships and corporate tech departments.
Engineers planning a career in the Automotive world should have to work in a dealership service dept, from the Service lane to the shop. I truly believe it would make things a bit better in the future, although it would take a decade to see any real affects there. I'm amazed at the lack on mechanical aptitude that engineers have and recent experiences for me have yet to change my line of thought as I watch young engineers try and actually fix something. I've worked many years around engineers that while they can design, understand and apply technology they will just never get or understand how to mechanically and effeciently turn a wrench or screwdriver. Somewhere in that theoretical brain of theirs it seems they never had the connection to the hand that do the work. I will always however maintain there are outstanding techs out there that could if they had the patience in life to go thru the higher education experience would make great engineers.
The last step in rolling out new technology would be to hire those of us willing to jump in to new products with no fear of the unknown as test drivers as it seems to me that the folks having issues just don't drive like the engineers who do the testing

 

[Chance]

Some engineers can be very practical and hands-on, others quite theoretical, and a few can be both. After working closely with engineers of all types for decades, I can say that being both practical and theoretical is somewhat rare and in high demand. I can not see many people of that caliber and education working at a service department of an auto dealer.

 

[proman]

They have all this technology in the RAM Truck small Cummins diesels, do these trucks have all these problems and no one to fix them also??

If so, they are in big trouble!!

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

Some engineers can be very practical and hands-on, others quite theoretical, and a few can be both. After working closely with engineers of all types for decades, I can say that being both practical and theoretical is somewhat rare and in high demand. I can not see many people of that caliber and education working at a service department of an auto dealer.

I have a 44 year old son who is both. Amazing skills of the wrench and wonderful theoretical technology knowledge. He is up a few levels in his engineering firm and does lots of "management" of others, project supervision and oversight because that is where the money is. Being an owner is his goal as well. It's a shame in one sense that our society does not see the value in keeping this sort of skill working on things but I could not afford to have my vehicle repaired at what he makes. Thankfully I get help for free.

 

[Chance]

I have a 44 year old son who is both. Amazing skills of the wrench and wonderful theoretical technology knowledge. He is up a few levels in his engineering firm and does lots of "management" of others, project supervision and oversight because that is where the money is. Being an owner is his goal as well. It's a shame in one sense that our society does not see the value in keeping this sort of skill working on things but I could not afford to have my vehicle repaired at what he makes. Thankfully I get help for free.

Exactly. Not only would it be cost prohibitive, but if done in large scale who would then design, build, and help operate refineries, chemical plants, nuclear power stations, etc?

 

[papab]

Wow, another one, I thought maybe the rumors were true that they had their teething issues sorted out. It costs them a lot to replace a new van. It seems like it would cheaper to have a team of smart well trained techs, and fly one out when the dealers got stumped. FCA doesn't seem to care if their customers are satisfied or if their reputation slides downhill.

I don't think we need engineers fixing cars, but a good tech needs a solid education and they should be well trained in computer controlled systems, sensors, actuators, as well as engine theory & mechanics. I know mechanics are called technicians now, but there aren't many out there with the skill to troubleshoot a difficult problem. I talked to a dealer tech who told me that chrysler didn't even require school. The business really needs sharp people who have at least a 2 yr degree If there isn't already there really should be 2 jobs, mechanics and techs.

I don't think this is the biggest issue though. From my interactions it seemed like the dealer techs were in contact with the corporate techs & they weren't throwing parts at it without approval from chrysler. The corporate techs were as helpless as the under-trained dealer techs.

This whole deal just smells of corporate incompetence. The system is not really that complex. Sure it is compared to the old days, but they should be able to get these resolved. These initial problems are bad, but what happens in a few years when we start to see normal issues pop up? Is the fault processing system so bad that we'll be dealing with a van that no one can fix? No lemon law to help us out after 1 yr.

 

[Bconno]

Yes I agree, but we can't know for sure as several OP's have said they got EGR codes and changing out the EGR valve took a long while, did not fix the problem and never were resolved until a flash of the computer happened. We can't know for sure if yours was the EGR although I am willing to say it was. The others got CELs later that went away by themselves. Might yours have gone away if the code was cleared and you drove it? Have you had the latest computer update done? It seems like the computer learns and the codes stop if no components are changed. I am trying to see patterns so please don't flame me for thinking.

Not flaming you at all, I agree with you about your thinking. But I am thinking the EGR issue did go away after the replace. Hard to prove either way since I was on the road and never had the codes pulled.
I do believe the computer learned and corrected the lights and messages that popped up on my trip.
Not sure what the latest computer update is but I did see on a repair order they updated it right before I picked it up.

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

pabap,
I agree. Your thought that we will drive these diesels for years and then not be able to resolve some future combination of issues hadn't occurred to me. Scary. We saw just this problem with the last carbureted cars and trucks. Back then we HAD to pull a bunch of the emission add ons to get them to run. I remember it was routine to drill out the caps over the carb main and idle jets to get to the adjustments and often replace whole carbs with earlier ones to get them to start and run. Reverse engineering the emissions systems to go back to a dirty engine that ran well. FI did fix that. Some of that emissions reversing has happened with the controlled diesels already. These computer run engines would not be easy to trick. I really hope (and believe) you are wrong but it is fair warning!

 

[Chance]

In fairness to mechanics and techs, perhaps they are being asked to solve design issues where there is not enough history of failures to know what is actually causing the problem.

I personally don't put as much faith in computer diagnostics as I think some here do based on your comments. Computers don't think -- they are a stupid machine programmed in advance to act a certain way based on what the programmer told it. And when the physical world varies unexpectedly from what that program "assumed" would be causing an issue, information it provides can be next to useless. Or worse because it can be misleading and sending mechanics to chase their tails.

In retrospect there now seems to be a reason why the diesel was delayed for about a year. Long-term I'd bet on a simpler inherently-cleaner-running diesel to replace the present 3.0. If not that then they will likely drop the diesel and offer turbocharged gasoline direct injected engines with similar torque characteristics.