[MsNomer]

On the Sprinter forum:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52607

Discussion just started this morning, so it may continue. Gist so far is that with the new emission controls, fuel mileage may be the only cost advantage diesel has left.

Note: lindenengineering runs a repair shop.

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

That thread is PM ignorant and not very applicable to us. The PM diesel has proven to be as reliable as the gasser (probably more so, since 2/15), the desirability of the PM is in a large part due to the unique combination of engine and transmission, idling the PM gasser may have its own issues, Diesel has proven to have been cheaper than gas for more than a year and is less than 10% over it in Phoenix this week, and the mpg advantage for our diesel is about 150% over the gasser due to several factors. Drivability is in itself our best advantage and I believe that has been supported by a few owners who have had both (Adrian comes to mind) which is a vehicle specific attribute so not applicable to Tranists or Sprinters. Diesel is always less popular when gas is the price of bottled water like it is now. When fuel prices go back to $4/gal that 150% advantage will have many thinking diesel, but thankfully it won’t be soon.
They are right when a gasser and diesel are available in a platform the gasser will out sell the diesel, I think we all know it’s a $5,000 option!. It is true that with Sprinter still giving diesel vans such a bad reputation everyone is suspicious, they hurt diesel. We are in a new age for diesel, like cars went through 40 years ago but it is now working well in the PM. Yes diesels have lost the idling advantage but we never should have done that anyway.
They are being polite and staying on the facts over there but they just don’t have much input from us, we are keeping the secret to the good diesel.
And remember if you talk bad about Diesels, the Seinfeld Soup Nazi becomes the Diesel Nazi.

 

[keeponvaning]

The only good thing about the sprinter site is the jokes

 

[MsNomer]

Actually, if you own a PM, it's a fantastic feel-good site. And there are some innovative conversions that would fit even better into our roomy PM's.

That said, Sprinter's reputation affects us all among the unwashed hoards who don't yet understand that there's a better alternative.

 

[Chance]

It would be of greater value if not comparing very dissimilar gasoline versus Diesel engines.

 

[TedV865]

Y'all shush about the diesels. I prefer the drive of a diesel but I got such a smoking deal on a RV prep gasser, it would have cost me 150% or more to get a comparable diesel. :crying:
Not having to fight for a diesel pump can be nice on a trip. (I'm trying to make myself feel better.. rationalization excuses)

My 98 Jetta TDi paid for itself in fuel savings at $280k miles. It has 408k on it now. Experiences by the Sprinter and other manufacturers also steered me away from new diesels. It's like we are revisiting the 70's emissions fiascoes all over again. Strolling through a mine field.

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

TedV865
Yes we are and I for one hope we are through the most of it. I don’t blame anyone for making economic decisions and being happy to live with the consequences of them. As a person of limited means I do so all the time. My son’s TDI is going back to VW and although the car has been the best car he has ever had (his words). He is done with VW for a bit at least.

for Chance,
You are so right. Similar engines have a theoretical mpg advantage for diesels of about 135% +- in the real World. Our 3.0 L I4 has a distinct advantage over our 3.6 L gasoline V6 as each cubic centimeter and each cylinder extract a loss due to pumping and friction. There is no way a 3.6 L V6 diesel would beat our gas engine by 150% BTW VM Motori makes our diesel and the 3.0 V6 in the jeep and a bunch of other FCA vehicles. I am very happy we got the 3.0 I4 and I would have had to look much harder at the PM gas if it were our engine which it may be in the future. I am amazed this commercial engine isn’t used more as it has a long life reputation. It was designed before the era of modern emissions and that may be the reason. Designed-in cleaner exhaust is easier to make compliant I expect.

 

[Chance]

For a FWD vehicle like ProMaster, I'd prefer an inline engine, preferably with a heavy duty design that includes at least an iron block for durability. And if we want both fuel economy and torque, then it's gotta have low displacement with turbocharging.

Working backwards that would put a new comparable engine around 2.5L in size, with turbo, that can make 250 HP and at least 300 lb-ft of torque, enough to match or beat diesel performance. The engine would be a little smaller than Ford's 2.7L EcoBoost in size, but preferably inline.

By downsizing to equal power, fuel economy differences (MPGs) should be limited to between 20 and 40 percent. The engine would cost less than diesel, weigh less, and should be quieter. Such a comparison would make it harder to justify a diesel.

It should be noted that many large cities in Europe are looking at phasing out diesels in order to improve air quality. When I was in London two years ago the smell of Diesel engines was horrible. I know they are cleaner now, but what do they really bring to the table that a turbo gasoline engine can't, except a little higher efficiency?

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

Good questions. I can’t answer most of them. The new diesel is VERY clean. Inside my tailpipe there is NO SOOT at all, it’s cleaner than any gasoline engine I’ve had. It’s exhaust doesn't smell like diesel AT ALL in fact it smells a tiny bit like ammonia which is what the DEF produces to decrease the NOx to Nitrogen, CO2 and H2O. I would say to ban pre-Euro6 (2014-) engines in Europe would be fair but these? I don’t understand why.
In Europe most Ducatos use a 2.3 L engine, all are diesels and have a clutch. Our version with the Automated Manual is called “Comfort-Matic” and can be had with this 3.0 L I4 but is considered over kill there.
Don’t underestimate the value of 30-40% more fuel economy when fuel might be =to $8/gal.
Your comments agree with my assessment.
We used to call those small engined cars and motorcycles tiddlers. Turbo has changed that.

 

[MJAB]

For a FWD vehicle like ProMaster, I'd prefer an inline engine, preferably with a heavy duty design that includes at least an iron block for durability. And if we want both fuel economy and torque, then it's gotta have low displacement with turbocharging.

Working backwards that would put a new comparable engine around 2.5L in size, with turbo, that can make 250 HP and at least 300 lb-ft of torque, enough to match or beat diesel performance. The engine would be a little smaller than Ford's 2.7L EcoBoost in size, but preferably inline.

By downsizing to equal power, fuel economy differences (MPGs) should be limited to between 20 and 40 percent. The engine would cost less than diesel, weigh less, and should be quieter. Such a comparison would make it harder to justify a diesel.

It should be noted that many large cities in Europe are looking at phasing out diesels in order to improve air quality. When I was in London two years ago the smell of Diesel engines was horrible. I know they are cleaner now, but what do they really bring to the table that a turbo gasoline engine can't, except a little higher efficiency?

There is a recent study about London, if ones looks at data and what many newspapers write, than will find that what is written is not always supported by scientific data.
For example: central London, NOx road traffic sources:
diesel vans: 5%
private and hire diesel cars: 2.9%
Public buses: 14.2%
Heavy goods vehicles: 8%
Taxis: 7%

And that data included all vehicles, not only the most modern ones.

For Euro 6 diesel recent publication shows, even accounting regeneration, that many times the particle matter levels are lower than the air ingested by the engine.

Pollution is real, but sources are many and newer cars are not the only source.

Some notes:

- in most european capitals, excluding London, most buses use natural gas in their modified diesel engines, not diesel fuel (they emit also less noise)
- France their nuclear plants are producing too low electricity => not earning enough money to cover costs.
- There is worldwide a overproduction of gasoline.

Link to the study about London:
http://www.ippr.org/files/publicati...air-pollution-crisis-Nov2016.pdf?noredirect=1

 

[Chance]

Whether anti-diesel sentiments are justified or not wasn't the point. For whatever reason, there seems to be a growing movement against Diesel engines.


http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38170794

 

[rabbitdiesel1]

Does anyone know how many diesel promasters are sold compared to gas? Winnebago offered the diesel in the Trend and Travato but have stopped due to lack of interest in the diesel. I hear some Promaster dealers have never seen a diesel model. Transit diesel sales are less than 10% of total sales. Volvo and Cummins both claim that in many parts of the country the air going into their diesel engines is dirtier than the exhaust that comes out. If you take a class 8 truck (semi) with a modern clean diesel engine and drive it 140 miles, you will emit about the same amount of pollution as someone char broiling a quarter lb hamburger.

 

[bkhi]

On the Sprinter forum:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52607

Discussion just started this morning, so it may continue. Gist so far is that with the new emission controls, fuel mileage may be the only cost advantage diesel has left.

Note: lindenengineering runs a repair shop.

He runs a very very good repair shop specializing in diesels

http://www.lindenengineering.com/about.aspx

 

[RDinNHandAZ]

Does anyone know how many diesel promasters are sold compared to gas? CUT....

I wish I knew.
GOOD CAR BAD CAR (goodcarbadcar.net) reports sales and 2016 YTD sales of ProMasters is 35,746 and in Canada it is 2236. Diesel sales ????? I can’t find ‘em Promaster sales are up 51% over 2015 while most of the other vans' sales are down or flat. See: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/12/usa-commercial-van-sales-figures-november-2016-ytd.html
BTW Wards (http://wardsauto.com/blog/fca-defends-ram-diesel-take-rate)reports FCA sold 14.4% of all Ram trucks as diesel halfway through 2015, FCA says 20%, I have always thought ours was in that range but information is HARD to find.