I am almost ready to start wiring & have a few questions......

4169 Views 203 Replies 18 Participants Last post by dog_house, 2 mo ago

Motor7

Discussion Starter · 3 mo ago

310 watts of solar, 2,000 watt inverter, 2- 100amp LifePo4 batteries.

I think I want shore power separate from the 12v solar system to power the roof air and a few outlets just for simplicity. The biggest power hog will be the Eccotemp 2.5 water heater with it's 1440 watt element, so it will plug into inverter when rolling, and plug into shore power outlet when at campgrounds.

I have looked at a bunch of wiring diagrams, and have not found one to match what I think I need. I am confident doing general electrical work, have put in two independent solar systems on other campers, but am not too confident on building a system from scratch.

So far I have:
150 amp battery isolator
12 led puck lights
2 led reading lamps
2 dimmers for pucks
Progressive Dynamics Power control Center fuse box
12v iceco fridge/freezer
diesel parking heater
Renogy Voyager 20amp charge controller
inline fuses & disconnects
10ga Anchor wire for solar panels
4ga for batteries

As to the Battery to Battery charger....what size? They start at 20amp, and go up to 60+amp. Bigger is most likely better/faster, but the larger one's seem to be overkill?

This diagram is close....good enough to work with/modify?

Ok, go slow with me...."Mongo not no how 2 spel,...Die AH Gram"

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larry barello

· #2 · 3 mo ago

Use at least #2 for the inverter. 2x#4 is the same as #2. I find lugs and connectors to be problematic and suggest you reduce connections wherever possible. I.e. #2 (or 00) rather than multiple wires. (I used #4 between the batteries. Ok, but a tad light)

20a charge controller should be fine for 400w of solar. #10 wire should be fine for most circuits. #14 should be fine for your actual 12v loads.

The alternator should really be a proper charge controller and, depending on the run should be #4 wire as a depleted battery will draw a lot of current.

I think the separate shore circuit is a great idea. I wish I had done that.

I would put in disconnects between the battery and everything else and on each external power source (alternator/solar) and the load center. This is for convenience as well as protection. Appropriate sized resettable thermal breakers are convenient. Use a quality brand. I use mechanical products.

Consider a combo a solar/alternator charge controller. I have had good results with the Renogy unit and I see other reputable brands have competing product (kisae). Less wiring (see above) and better battery management.

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HarryN

· #3 · 3 mo ago

I have no experience with the progressive dynamics power centers. I do wonder though - since it already has a fuse block built in - maybe it is possible to just attach all of your smaller DC items to it?

Example

refrigerator
solar charge controller
lights
etc.

Lights wise, I have had mixed luck with the puck lights and dimmers. Perhaps consider LED light strips for some of the applications.

Battery capacity wise, probably you have seen that I usually suggest to use 1 battery like that for every 500 - 600 watts of inverter capacity, so you can start with 2, but probably will end up with 3 or 4 eventually.

Solar wise - 400 watts is a completely different experience than 200 watts.

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Motor7

Discussion Starter · #4 · 3 mo ago

Larry, thanks for the info. I can ditch the Renogy Voyager and use it on the Pontoon boat(adding 1 - 310 panel there to charge two deep cycle car batteries & run the same IceCo).

Which combo solar/alternator charge controller would you recommend for the van? I have installed the Bogart SC-2030 in the past, would that be a better choice?

Motor7

Discussion Starter · #5 · 3 mo ago

HarryN said:
I have no experience with the progressive dynamics power centers. I do wonder though - since it already has a fuse block built in - maybe it is possible to just attach all of your smaller DC items to it?

Example

refrigerator

solar charge controller

lights

etc.

Yes, it's just a fuse panel in a plastic recessed housing. As for more batteries, you may be right, but we typically don't use a ton of power on our trips, but then again, no boondocking so far for more than a few days at a time. I wonder why pucks don't play well with dimmers?

SteveSS

· #6 · 3 mo ago

A few random thoughts: Not all LEDs are compatible with dimmers. To be sure, look for LEDs that say "dimmable". A battery isolator plus a B2B is redundant. They do the same thing. These days, most go with a B2B (also called a DC-DC). More of a sure thing, especially with lithium. Minimum 40A B2B for 200Ah of battery. If you have the standard 180A alternator, a 40-50A B2B is max. The optional 220A alternator can handle 60A. The dual B2B-solar controller units are quite popular, but be aware they only do one of those things at a time. That's not bad, it's just a personal choice. I went with separate B2B (Renogy) and solar controller (Bogart TM-SC) units to have max control over both processes. There are lots options. The "best" one depends on your own needs and preferences.

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Motor7

Discussion Starter · #7 · 3 mo ago

Ok, will check the pucks later today....I 'think' they are dimmable, but I bought them a year+ago. I think I want to ditch the Renogy anyway since it's PWM, so putting solar on the pontoon roof where it will never get shading, the PWM makes more sense. So, then my option is to use the 150Amp Battery Doctor isolator and a new Mppt controller, or just by a combo unit like the Bogart? Kinda leaning towards the Bogart for the same reasons you mentioned:

shop.bogartengineering.com

Bogart Engineering Trimetric BMS

Trimetric BMS TM-2030 Battery Monitor, SC-2030 Solar Charger Shunt & accessories. Get more cycle life from your lead acid (flooded or AGM/Gel) batteries by automatically ensuring that they are fully charged every time. PWM MPPT RV Solar Charger

shop.bogartengineering.com

Kinda pricey though, so I am exploring other brands.

I do have the 180amp alternator.

Reactions: 1

SteveSS

· #8 · 3 mo ago

Motor7 said:
Ok, will check the pucks later today....I 'think' they are dimmable, but I bought them a year+ago. I think I want to ditch the Renogy anyway since it's PWM, so putting solar on the pontoon roof where it will never get shading, the PWM makes more sense. So, then my option is to use the 150Amp Battery Doctor isolator and a new Mppt controller, or just by a combo unit like the Bogart? Kinda leaning towards the Bogart for the same reasons you mentioned:

Bogart Engineering Trimetric BMS

Trimetric BMS TM-2030 Battery Monitor, SC-2030 Solar Charger Shunt & accessories. Get more cycle life from your lead acid (flooded or AGM/Gel) batteries by automatically ensuring that they are fully charged every time. PWM MPPT RV Solar Charger

shop.bogartengineering.com

Kinda pricey though, so I am exploring other brands.
I do have the 180amp alternator.

The Bogart TM-SC is a battery monitor/solar controller combo. It doesn't do alternator charging. I paired my TM-SC combo with a Renogy DC-DC for alternator charging. The Bogart combo is super flexible, but it's old-school, pre-lithium. There are no "lithium" settings. You have to program it for lithium yourself, but that's not hard once you have the numbers. The Bogart SC is also PWM, but it has worked just fine for me. You sure can't beat its small footprint. A 40-50A DC-DC will do most of the work anyway. Solar output from my 4x100W panels rarely exceeds 20A. Way less if overcast, or under trees.

If you wanted to consider a solar charger/alternator charger combo, look at the Renogy DCC50S or the Kisae DMT. The Renogy can also keep your starter battery topped up with solar.

Regardless, you should also have a shunt-based battery monitor with state-of-charge (SOC%) capability. Monitoring voltage alone isn't that meaningful for lithium. Bogart, Victron, Renogy, etc, all sell them. Amazon even sells one that looks exactly like Renogy's.

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Winston

· #9 · 3 mo ago

Motor7 said:
Ok, will check the pucks later today....

A comment on puck lighting. We use pucks and intended, also, to include dimmers. But it turned out that our pucks weren't unreasonably bright, standing alone. We have seven of them and generally have them switched, either as single pucks or in pairs. Our dinette, for example, has two pucks and a 'double throw' switch - - 'center' is off; 'down' lights 1 dinette puck; 'up' both dinette pucks. The bottom line turned out, since we desired control over our pucks either singly or in small groups, we effectively achieved dimming, not by using dimmers, but by selecting which lights we turned-on. We never installed the dimmers.

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Winston

· #10 · 3 mo ago

It is probably too late for this comment, but the use of a combo charger/inverter solves your problem of having 'shore power' outlets as well as providing an important additional source of charging. These combo units operate on the principle that if you're not plugged in, the inverter will supply power to your outlets. When, and instantaneously, when you plug into short power, your outlets are automatically switched to shore power and the inverter is turned off. And, of course, combo units have built-in chargers to recharge you house batteries while you're on shore power.

You can achieve some of the above with a simple automatic switchover unit which, again, automatically switches your outlets between shore power and inverter power - - but have no charging capability. This might work better for you considering you already own the inverter.

Reactions: 1

RV8R

· #11 · 3 mo ago

I believe my Buddy wired in a “Progressive Dynamics”. Seemed decent ,,, came with pigtails so crimp connections on the 12vdc panel side ( which I do not like ). But IIRC, had a good converter charger & had a “Lithium button” for that chemistry that is handy

PD4045LIK-PD4045KV 45 Amp Lithium Ion Inteli-Power Mighty Mi

Output device Gadget Communication Device Audio equipment Font

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RV8R

· #12 · 3 mo ago (Edited)

2

On another note ,,, My other Friend’s recent rebuild ,,, In basically rewiring his entire van, but keeping most of the wires 120vac & 12vdc at the same length ( I had to splice 3 12vdc lines that grew in length ), we basically pulled the power center out of the original location by “disconnecting the load side” & left the panels wired up.

When complete & re energized, I was getting a “cross feed” on circuits 1 & 2. As “negative is home run ,, but common” it had to be on the positive side. At first I thought his motherboard had gone bad, but started to look at the fuses & with in 1 minute found this;

Audio equipment Electrical wiring Cable Electronic component Electronic engineering

If you can’t quite figure out the problem, let me direct your attention to circuits 1 thru 6 & specifically 1 & 2. You will see cross contamination of several “strands” of wire touching between 1 & 2 ( pump & fridge ).

So I turned to my Buddy ( because I installed these wires originally & they were perfect ), & I asked him, “Who did you have working on your van up in the Yukon?” Just the RV Tech Shop that redid some plumbing & winterized it”, he said.

I was livid 👿👿. Then I handed him my surgical instruments I use to install virgin factory twist wire into such connections & fully in ,,, not 1/2 way out. I asked him what the labour rate was & @ north of $100/hr I expect way way better than that. Plus ,,, all he had to do to kill the circuit is pull the fuse ( or turn the big red switch off ) ,,, I have no idea why that RV Tech pulled the positive wires out ,,, but that quality of work is tragically crappy. Hey @83Grumman that Tech is a “Professional” 😳.

In reference ,,, this is how an Amateur ,,, “me” performed the original;

Musical instrument Audio equipment Gas Electronic component Event

Regardless of all this @Motor7 ,,, I prefer this style 12vdc board / panel over the “pigtails” & crimps.

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GaryBIS

· #13 · 3 mo ago

Hi,
A couple thoughts/questions on your diagram...

- I'm probably missing something, but I don't see how +12 volts gets to the fuse box? It seems like normally there would be a 12 volt wire going from the house battery terminal (or positive bus bar) to the fuse box. This line should be fused as close as possible to the house battery.

- The line going from the starter battery to the house battery (via the isolator) wants to have a fuse or breaker on both ends because it has current sources on both ends. If it does not have a fuse on each end, then if there is a short of this wire to the van chassis, then one the two current sources will be shorted to the chassis.

- I'd consider using a DC to DC charger instead of the isolator. It seems like when investing quite a bit of money in the Li batteries, that its probably worth spending the extra for the DC to DC to make sure the Li batteries get charged properely. I used the Kisae DC to DC charger, which also includes a solar charger in the same unit - but, looks like you might have the charge controller already.

- I'd get familiar with the BlueSea Circuit Wizard for wire sizing. It was developed by BlueSea and follows the ABYC marine electric code. Very easy to use and very safe, but not overly conservative. If you use it to size the inverter, the aprox current is (2000 watts) / (12.5 volts)(0.85 efficiency) = 190 amps - if you use the inverter at full power. When using the Circuit Wizard to size the inverter, fill in the Duration blank with how long you expect to use it at one time.

- The Fridge seems to be not connected to anything right now? It looks like where you have positioned it, you plan to run it off the inverter? Since it runs on 12V or 120VAC, I'd consider hooking it up to your 12V fuse box instead so that you don't have to run the inverter all the time to keep the fridge running - the inverter add inefficiency and uses power even when there is no load on it.

- A lot of people use this dual pole breaker to shut off the solar and provide overcurrent protection. There is technically an NEC rule that says you need to break both of the lines from the solar panels. Since solar panels are self limiting on current, they don't really need protection, but its very handy to use the breaker as a switch.

- Be careful that all wires that are leaving a current source (eg house battery or van battery) is protected by a fuse or breaker of the right size that is located as close as possible to the current source.

Gary

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dog_house

· #14 · 3 mo ago

If you have a charger in the PD panel think about how you want to handle the inverter and shore power. You don't want the charger being powered by the inverter trying to create a perpetual motion machine. This can be done with a transfer switch or just remembering to turn it off when the inverter is on.

If there is not a charger in it and you select an inverter charger it will take care of this automagically.

If budget allows I would run 2/0 cable and put a 3000w inverter in from the beginning, its a little more money but you are ready for the future and not running it at the max to heat water for 30 minutes at a time.

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Motor7

Discussion Starter · #15 · 3 mo ago

RV8R said:
On another note ,,, My other Friend’s recent rebuild ,,, In basically rewiring his entire van, but keeping most of the wires 120vac & 12vdc at the same length ( I had to splice 3 12vdc lines that grew in length ), we basically pulled the power center out of the original location by “disconnecting the load side” & left the panels wired up.

When complete & re energized, I was getting a “cross feed” on circuits 1 & 2. As “negative is home run ,, but common” it had to be on the positive side. At first I thought his motherboard had gone bad, but started to look at the fuses & with in 1 minute found this;

If you can’t quite figure out the problem, let me direct your attention to circuits 1 thru 6 & specifically 1 & 2. You will see cross contamination of several “strands” of wire touching between 1 & 2 ( pump & fridge ).

So I turned to my Buddy ( because I installed these wires originally & they were perfect ), & I asked him, “Who did you have working on your van up in the Yukon?” Just the RV Tech Shop that redid some plumbing & winterized it”, he said.

I was livid 👿👿. Then I handed him my surgical instruments I use to install virgin factory twist wire into such connections & fully in ,,, not 1/2 way out. I asked him what the labour rate was & @ north of $100/hr I expect way way better than that. Plus ,,, all he had to do to kill the circuit is pull the fuse ( or turn the big red switch off ) ,,, I have no idea why that RV Tech pulled the positive wires out ,,, but that quality of work is tragically crappy. Hey @83Grumman that Tech is a “Professional” 😳.

In reference ,,, this is how an Amateur ,,, “me” performed the original;
Regardless of all this @Motor7 ,,, I prefer this style 12vdc board / panel over the “pigtails” & crimps.

Yikes, I saw those wild strands right off the bat....not good!

The PG is just a fuse/breaker box, no charger in it.

Reactions: 1

Motor7

Discussion Starter · #16 · 3 mo ago

GaryBIS said:
Hi,
A couple thoughts/questions on your diagram...

- I'm probably missing something, but I don't see how +12 volts gets to the fuse box? It seems like normally there would be a 12 volt wire going from the house battery terminal (or positive bus bar) to the fuse box. This line should be fused as close as possible to the house battery.

- The line going from the starter battery to the house battery (via the isolator) wants to have a fuse or breaker on both ends because it has current sources on both ends. If it does not have a fuse on each end, then if there is a short of this wire to the van chassis, then one the two current sources will be shorted to the chassis.

- I'd consider using a DC to DC charger instead of the isolator. It seems like when investing quite a bit of money in the Li batteries, that its probably worth spending the extra for the DC to DC to make sure the Li batteries get charged properely. I used the Kisae DC to DC charger, which also includes a solar charger in the same unit - but, looks like you might have the charge controller already.

- I'd get familiar with the BlueSea Circuit Wizard for wire sizing. It was developed by BlueSea and follows the ABYC marine electric code. Very easy to use and very safe, but not overly conservative. If you use it to size the inverter, the aprox current is (2000 watts) / (12.5 volts)(0.85 efficiency) = 190 amps - if you use the inverter at full power. When using the Circuit Wizard to size the inverter, fill in the Duration blank with how long you expect to use it at one time.

- The Fridge seems to be not connected to anything right now? It looks like where you have positioned it, you plan to run it off the inverter? Since it runs on 12V or 120VAC, I'd consider hooking it up to your 12V fuse box instead so that you don't have to run the inverter all the time to keep the fridge running - the inverter add inefficiency and uses power even when there is no load on it.

- A lot of people use this dual pole breaker to shut off the solar and provide overcurrent protection. There is technically an NEC rule that says you need to break both of the lines from the solar panels. Since solar panels are self limiting on current, they don't really need protection, but its very handy to use the breaker as a switch.

- Be careful that all wires that are leaving a current source (eg house battery or van battery) is protected by a fuse or breaker of the right size that is located as close as possible to the current source.

Gary

I just pulled that digram off the 'net today. I have printed it out, and will be getting my crayon out to make adjustments. Yes, it is missing a few things, and I am not yet sure where/how the heavy gauge wires to the hot water heater get connected. Yep, fridge to fuse panel. And, I need to figure out how many and what type of breaker/fuses I need.

dog_house

· #17 · 3 mo ago

I re-read you original post and now I'm picking up what you're laying down. The inverter will just power an inverter outlet and the inverter system won't touch the shore power... Disregard my post about a loop between the inverter and charger.

If you are looking for a well built inverter charger I have been using one of these for almost 10 years on a boat to run an air conditioner and it's still kicking. It's a happy medium between super cheap and Instagram Vanlife Victron touchscreen. Xantrex Freedom Hf 1800 Inverter/Charger

You could have it charge the batteries on shore power and it will automate the water heater transfer. Just feed this guy from a breaker in your PD panel and it will charge the batteries on shore power and transfer the water heater from inverter to shore power.

It has been running a 1500w water heater in the boat off AGM batteries for a long time.

Reactions: 2

HarryN

· #18 · 3 mo ago

Motor7 said:
Ok, will check the pucks later today....I 'think' they are dimmable, but I bought them a year+ago. I think I want to ditch the Renogy anyway since it's PWM, so putting solar on the pontoon roof where it will never get shading, the PWM makes more sense. So, then my option is to use the 150Amp Battery Doctor isolator and a new Mppt controller, or just by a combo unit like the Bogart? Kinda leaning towards the Bogart for the same reasons you mentioned:

Bogart Engineering Trimetric BMS

Trimetric BMS TM-2030 Battery Monitor, SC-2030 Solar Charger Shunt & accessories. Get more cycle life from your lead acid (flooded or AGM/Gel) batteries by automatically ensuring that they are fully charged every time. PWM MPPT RV Solar Charger

shop.bogartengineering.com

Kinda pricey though, so I am exploring other brands.

I do have the 180amp alternator.

Not sure about the other pwm units on the market. I have swapped out a failed renogy unit for a customer in the past. Since I use the bogart setup in the 24 volt setups (it does both 12 and 24) I used one that I have in stock. If you go down this path, make sure to get their WiFi module. This transmits the info to any OS / any device / any web browser, making the setup MUCH easier.

Sometimes decisions come down to if you don't mind fiddling with things while out on the road or not.

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Motor7

Discussion Starter · #19 · 3 mo ago

I appreciate all the responses and info...it is a bit overwhelming at times, though. Hat's off to the pro's here that do this stuff in their sleep 😎

Looking at this dc to dc/solar chager:

www.amazon.com

Amazon.com: KISAE Technology DMT1250 Abso DC-DC Charger, 50A : Automotive

Buy KISAE Technology DMT1250 Abso DC-DC Charger, 50A: Battery Chargers - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Rated voltage on my 310watt panel is 37.2v....and I am having trouble finding the input voltage of the Kisae & Renogy.
Victron 12/12/30 says 8-17v.

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Lolaeliz

· #20 · 3 mo ago

SteveSS said:
The dual B2B-solar controller units are quite popular, but be aware they only do one of those things at a time. That's not bad, it's just a personal choice.

Ditto on what @SteveSS wrote. As far as the combo unit, I literally shut off my solar at its disconnect switch when I need a larger amount of charging. The up side is one unit takes less space, and the renogy version trickle charges toe van battery when it's not driven much. So yes, it's all a matter of what works for you.

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