Ram Promaster Forum banner

1 - 20 of 80 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
154 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've found a PM for sale that is optioned very close to what I want, but it has the double passenger seat. This is a deal-breaker. There are several posts on this forum from folks wanting and arranging to meet and swap seats. No follow-ups that I can find. Has anyone SUCCESSFULLY swapped seats?

I'd like to purchase my PM soon, before the May incentives disappear. This seat thing is a big deal for me. Responses very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Hardy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,153 Posts
I might be interested in that. Where are you located? I have my pass seat removed because i built a table, but when i might need a passenger seat the double would be more useful. I assume you are proposing an even trade. Im in ohio.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
145 Posts
He is more concerned about the vehicle computer having issues with the wiring/sensors of a swapped seat. I am thinking he needs to know if someone successfully installed a single seat where there was a double without electronic issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,153 Posts
Unplugging the seat connectors (there are 3 right next to each other) lights the airbag light on the dash and gives you a text warning on startup, but otherwise it doesnt cause any problems so far as i know. But maybe it disables ALL the airbags, and ive been driving around for 84k without them!

Seems to me the seats would be the same as far as the airbag was concerned. It'd be crazy more expensive to have to code the computer with different seat combinations. So far as i know, the double seat has the same side airbag as the single seat, no third bag for the middle dude.

but i dont really know, and the only way to test would be to crash our vans!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Buy one 2,5 ohm resistor.
Cut off the 2 lines red-green and red-yellow.
Connect the 2 wires to the resistor.
Ignition 3 times on and off.
30 sec after Engine-start its ok.
Thats all ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
154 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
God bless you B.Boy! If this works it is a very simple solution. Thank you. But now I'm wondering about the inverse. What about the person installing the double seat in place of their single one. Is it a simple plug'n'play and ignore the pressure switch connection from the middle seat? I don't yet own a PM so I'm not familiar with what the connectors look like.

"Ignition 3 times on and off. 30 sec after Engine-start its ok." Could you explain this please in a little more detail? Are you saying to turn the key to the "ON" position (all instrument panel lights illuminate, but don't start engine) then back to full "OFF" three times in a row. (Do this in the standard 10-second time frame?) Then start engine and 30 seconds later the airbag light goes out and everything is normal from then on? Also, are you saying 2.5 (two point five) ohm resistor or a 2.5k (2,500) ohm resistor? (The comma throws me off.)

Hardy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
154 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
"But maybe it disables ALL the airbags, and ive been driving around for 84k without them! "

Bingo Kip! I sure don't want to disable my airbags. After reading another of your posts re: table I considered doing that as well. I also usually fly solo, but I know there will be times when I would want/need to carry a passenger.

The dealer I spoke with was willing to do a simple seat swap with another of his ProMasters on the lot. But the computer/connector issues made it a "no-go". So if he can put the double seat in another van and have everything work as it should then I believe he'd still be willing to do this. But snipping wires from the connector and then wiring in the appropriate resistor might be something he's unwilling to do. Fiat/Chrysler might give a big thumbs-down to one of their dealers doing that. There might be liability issues, etc.

I travel the Interstate 35 corridor a lot, so if I do need to trade it would be easiest to do that with someone located not too far off that line. However, every couple of years or so I do find myself traveling to Ohio for a serious rollercoaster fix. :laugh: The van I'm looking at has the black/gray fabric seats.

Hardy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Are you saying to turn the key to the "ON" position (all instrument panel lights illuminate, but don't start engine) then back to full "OFF" three times in a row. (Do this in the standard 10-second time frame?) Then start engine and 30 seconds later the airbag light goes out and everything is normal from then on?
Exactly !

Installing the double seat in place of their single one must ignore the pressure switch connection from the middle seat.

The resistor must be 2.5 Ohm not 2500 Ohm
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
154 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
BavarianBoy, again, thank you so much! You may have made my day!

Kip-on-truckin: Ya like rollercoasters? ;)

Hardy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
You could also build an electrical adapter:
One 4-pin-connector to the Car with a 2-pin-connector to the new single-seat ;-)
Then you dont need to cut any cables
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
BBoy, do you know if the vans with single seats remove that wiring and connector for the double seat?
Seems like it would be standard and they would just place a resistive connector in its place?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
I do not think so.
Take a look at the wiring diagram.
D071 is the passenger seat connector.
If D071 is the connector are we talking about the two wires going to Q021 ?
Is that what you believe they don't install on the single seat?
It's been many years since I've looked at schematics....

The other question is those wires are color coded Rv and RG, wouldn't those be the wires to place the resistor?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Seat Swap. Success is determined by what you are willing to live with.

Hello all,

I would like to throw in some info. concerning the issue of the seat swap. I have done it, and can tell you only the PM that had the original OE Bench wiring from the factory will be the only one to suffer slightly from the swap with an initial start message on the display and the constant little red restraint light constantly on the dash.

FYI: It will not effect any of the other systems. TPS, CanBus, engine monitoring. all work fine, independently of this matter.
The funny thing is none of the engineers I spoke to were not willing to say if the air bag system would still work properly regardless of the fault.

I have decided that I grew up in a time without airbags and decided to live with the warning light and possibility of no airbag. Heck! I ride a Harley Davidson Roadking without a helmet on occasion. I'm happy to have a windshield on it.

Disclaimer: I'm in no way the authority on this matter, but would like to provide some insight and official documentation into the matter. I believe there are some slight safety wiring differences from the Euro model to the USA Model. Unless it's recently changed. Then please forgive me for lack of information. My intention is only to provide information to my experience and prevent damage or unintentional airbag discharge.

It will be great if the 2.5 resistor proposal is proven and works for US Models.

My understanding is the following may need to be addressed.
1. Center Passenger Seat Occupancy Detection
2. Center Seat Belt Buckle Switch Sense.
3. Center Seat Belt Tensioner.

Please consider the attached documented info. before manipulating the resistive values of certain circuits involved with the OCCUPANT RESTRAINT CONTROLLER MODULE. In the three forms of trouble code documents; I see mention of resistances or values which are in the trouble shooting steps, which there is no mention of a 2.5 ohms value.

I would be grateful to discuss how the 2.5 ohm value was achieved as a proven fix. Discussion of inception to application would be great for all, to include Video or Picture step by step showing the fault lights and message and correction of those by use of the resistor. This would possibly give some insight as to the connections and differences from the Euro and USA models. If any.

Below is a copy of my email response to Member ha3Dy_j1s.

Documents mentioned below are attached to this post.
----
ha3Dy_j1s,


As promised, here are the attached PDF's of my Dealership/ tech. diagnostics codes, trouble tree and diagrams. As you can see, I'm not making this stuff up. I have contacted techs. and people familiar with Ducato version from Europe as well. Although Promaster's and Ducato's are twins and appear physically the same, their are some personality and trait differences due to the USA and NTSA . Specifically on the safety restraint wiring/config. side of the house.

You have my permission to share the PDF's. According to Ram Promaster engineering Rep. I was not supposed to get the tech. docs. from the dealership. I was in the bay with the technician, because he was not understanding the issue or concept of the seat swap, and extra connectors for the center seat, and why the problem codes were existent if I have a factory passenger seat. I scooped up these documents off the techs. work bench. I figured it was info on my vehicle, so I kept them for my use. I was instrumental in educating the Techs. and dealership, so they would stop telling customers they could change the front seating configuration... Because they had been telling customers they could swap seats. I was a victim of that claim. Yes, the seat can be swapped, but not without technical consequence to the owner of the OE Bench model and wiring configuration.

** SAFTEY WARNING ** In the reading of document ("B0132-1B-FRONT CENTER PRETENTIONER-CIRCUIT RESISTANCE ABOVE THRESHHOLD") FYI: the word "SQUIB" in layman's terms is basically like a blasting cap. It is the explosive cap/detonator which activates the charged chemicals for Airbag deployment.

** On page 2 of this document: Notice how the SQUIB circuit is tied to the Seat belt tensioner resistance value, as I spoke to you about over the phone. My understanding from Ram Engineer; it takes a certain amount of G-force, weight and inertia to reach the breaking/release point of the seat belt tensioner, which causes a resistive value change to the MODULE OCCUPANT RESTRAINT CONTROLLER; telling the SQUIB to blow the airbag.

In the Air force, We used SQUIBS on the aircraft to deploy high pressure charged fire extinguishing chemicals to each individual engine in case of a fire.(The aircraft electrician in me)

My thoughts and goals are:

;-) Option 1 -Easiest: find a wrecked Promaster and to recover a good seat tensioner and seat occupancy switch. Any seat position will work as the plugs are the same for all positions. plug these items in and hide them under the passenger seat. Problem solved.(LOW or NO RISK)

:-( Option 2 - Hardest/last resort: To address the seat belt buckle switch and the passenger seat occupancy switch circuits for proper emulation. These will have to be addressed first, and are the simplest circuits to address before fooling the Center Seat Tensioner Circuit. Then try Center Seat Circuit Emulation or system fooling. Once this is figured out or complete, I believe this will solve the issue. (HIGH RISK for mistake and unintentional Airbag deployment)

As you can tell I've been waiting for a donor for option 1.

We can thank the NTSA for all this.
---
Back in March. When we swapped seats; Member Taylor and I have discussed the possibility of paralleling the wiring from the passenger seat to the center seat. Basically, the plugs are the same, and from the diagrams the system appears to be looking for the same information. The thing to consider even in this theory, is how the system sees or interprets those signals or values. The problem is neither of us was willing to chance an unintentional airbag deployment. I like a control environment, as long as its not at my expense. So I live with a light on the dash for now.
:eek:
 

Attachments

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,532 Posts
Don't repsond with black type on a grey background if you want anyone to be able to read your post.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Apologies for that black type. I copied and pasted from word. Because the forum server timed me out. For being long winded. I can try to delete and repost. I didn't look at how the type came out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
552 Posts
Posting for HiTech in a more readable color..

*******************

Hello all,

I would like to throw in some info. concerning the issue of the seat swap. I have done it, and can tell you only the PM that had the original OE Bench wiring from the factory will be the only one to suffer slightly from the swap with an initial start message on the display and the constant little red restraint light constantly on the dash.

FYI: It will not effect any of the other systems. TPS, CanBus, engine monitoring. all work fine, independently of this matter.
The funny thing is none of the engineers I spoke to were not willing to say if the air bag system would still work properly regardless of the fault.

I have decided that I grew up in a time without airbags and decided to live with the warning light and possibility of no airbag. Heck! I ride a Harley Davidson Roadking without a helmet on occasion. I'm happy to have a windshield on it.

Disclaimer: I'm in no way the authority on this matter, but would like to provide some insight and official documentation into the matter. I believe there are some slight safety wiring differences from the Euro model to the USA Model. Unless it's recently changed. Then please forgive me for lack of information. My intention is only to provide information to my experience and prevent damage or unintentional airbag discharge.

It will be great if the 2.5 resistor proposal is proven and works for US Models.

My understanding is the following may need to be addressed.
1. Center Passenger Seat Occupancy Detection
2. Center Seat Belt Buckle Switch Sense.
3. Center Seat Belt Tensioner.

Please consider the attached documented info. before manipulating the resistive values of certain circuits involved with the OCCUPANT RESTRAINT CONTROLLER MODULE. In the three forms of trouble code documents; I see mention of resistances or values which are in the trouble shooting steps, which there is no mention of a 2.5 ohms value.

I would be grateful to discuss how the 2.5 ohm value was achieved as a proven fix. Discussion of inception to application would be great for all, to include Video or Picture step by step showing the fault lights and message and correction of those by use of the resistor. This would possibly give some insight as to the connections and differences from the Euro and USA models. If any.

Below is a copy of my email response to Member ha3Dy_j1s.

Documents mentioned below are attached to this post.
----
ha3Dy_j1s,


As promised, here are the attached PDF's of my Dealership/ tech. diagnostics codes, trouble tree and diagrams. As you can see, I'm not making this stuff up. I have contacted techs. and people familiar with Ducato version from Europe as well. Although Promaster's and Ducato's are twins and appear physically the same, their are some personality and trait differences due to the USA and NTSA . Specifically on the safety restraint wiring/config. side of the house.

You have my permission to share the PDF's. According to Ram Promaster engineering Rep. I was not supposed to get the tech. docs. from the dealership. I was in the bay with the technician, because he was not understanding the issue or concept of the seat swap, and extra connectors for the center seat, and why the problem codes were existent if I have a factory passenger seat. I scooped up these documents off the techs. work bench. I figured it was info on my vehicle, so I kept them for my use. I was instrumental in educating the Techs. and dealership, so they would stop telling customers they could change the front seating configuration... Because they had been telling customers they could swap seats. I was a victim of that claim. Yes, the seat can be swapped, but not without technical consequence to the owner of the OE Bench model and wiring configuration.

** SAFTEY WARNING ** In the reading of document ("B0132-1B-FRONT CENTER PRETENTIONER-CIRCUIT RESISTANCE ABOVE THRESHHOLD") FYI: the word "SQUIB" in layman's terms is basically like a blasting cap. It is the explosive cap/detonator which activates the charged chemicals for Airbag deployment.

** On page 2 of this document: Notice how the SQUIB circuit is tied to the Seat belt tensioner resistance value, as I spoke to you about over the phone. My understanding from Ram Engineer; it takes a certain amount of G-force, weight and inertia to reach the breaking/release point of the seat belt tensioner, which causes a resistive value change to the MODULE OCCUPANT RESTRAINT CONTROLLER; telling the SQUIB to blow the airbag.

In the Air force, We used SQUIBS on the aircraft to deploy high pressure charged fire extinguishing chemicals to each individual engine in case of a fire.(The aircraft electrician in me)

My thoughts and goals are:

;-) Option 1 -Easiest: find a wrecked Promaster and to recover a good seat tensioner and seat occupancy switch. Any seat position will work as the plugs are the same for all positions. plug these items in and hide them under the passenger seat. Problem solved.(LOW or NO RISK)

:-( Option 2 - Hardest/last resort: To address the seat belt buckle switch and the passenger seat occupancy switch circuits for proper emulation. These will have to be addressed first, and are the simplest circuits to address before fooling the Center Seat Tensioner Circuit. Then try Center Seat Circuit Emulation or system fooling. Once this is figured out or complete, I believe this will solve the issue. (HIGH RISK for mistake and unintentional Airbag deployment)

As you can tell I've been waiting for a donor for option 1.

We can thank the NTSA for all this.
---
Back in March. When we swapped seats; Member Taylor and I have discussed the possibility of paralleling the wiring from the passenger seat to the center seat. Basically, the plugs are the same, and from the diagrams the system appears to be looking for the same information. The thing to consider even in this theory, is how the system sees or interprets those signals or values. The problem is neither of us was willing to chance an unintentional airbag deployment. I like a control environment, as long as its not at my expense. So I live with a light on the dash for now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
154 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Old timer here says "Man I miss the good ol' days." If only it were about four bolts in the floor! I really appreciate the research, technical prowess and generosity here Hitech. But this is rapidly getting way over my head. I would never have imagined ... I need to figure out something or I really won't be able to use my new $$$ van as intended. If I do take out or trade out my bench, I guess my first concern is what's happening behind that yellow light on the dash. I guess the passenger side airbag is disabled ... probably. Are all airbags disabled? Like hitech I drove many years without them and here I am. But to engineer something to be so feature specific and unchangeable seems nuts. Can't swap a passenger seat? ON A VAN? C'mon! :eek: [Future rant: Using the A-pillar for side curtain airbags - decreasing forward visibility to provide "safety".]

Otherwise, at almost 2-weeks ownership I'm real happy with my PM. Today I loaded it up and made it work a little. It was great. I even passed another Promaster on the freeway. We both waved.
 
1 - 20 of 80 Posts
Top