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Discussion Starter #1
Dad's van had a glow plug service warning pop up two weeks ago, so he took it in to the service department of the Ram dealership. They told him that a glow plug had gone bad and that to replace all 4 was going to be $800 ish. Last week they told him that the plugs were seized and that they would have to remove the head to try and get them out. Today, they said they couldn't remove them and that now they have to replace the head as well as all the plugs, etc and that the new estimate is $4600. Ouch!! Dads van is a 2015 2500 ecodiesel with 110,000 miles. Is this something that others are experiencing and can preventive maintenance be done (like removing the plug and putting anti-seize goop on the threads)so that I don't experience this same fate?


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I asked my dealer the same question and they advised me to wait and do what had to be done when it had to be done. I too would like to know if I pull my glow plugs now there can be something done to prevent them seizing later. I’ll look forward to the answer.
 

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Sometime it can happen, sometimes instead the problem are technitians not following the procedure to extract them.
Anyway difficult to say since they always will say they followed the procedures.

The recommended procedures can be found in glow plugs manufacturers websites such as Bosch, Beru, ...

All glow plug manufacturers recommends to remove plugs at engine working temperature and taking attention to break torque. To clean carefully the threads once removed, To plug at specified torque, ... ...

Than it happens sometimes that some plug are broken, even before entering in the workshop.
Some technitians, when possible, use extraction kits that are available for every engine manufacturer and brand.
The first extraction kits for diesel engines, if I remember well, were for Mercedes CDI engines.

Glow plugs tips and tricks (an NGK Europe video)

Extract and repairing kit
(3.0 4 cylinders is an FPR Industrial engine of F1 family, it is an F1C)

note: in 2016 at european SEVEL plant, where Fiat Ducato and companions for Citroen and Peugeot are manufactured, were manufactured more than 290k vehicles, all with diesel engines (F1A 2.3 l, F1C 3.0 and few 2.0 l).
 

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Speaking as an old steam plant mechanic who has dealt with hundreds of seized bolts. Apply Kroil to old glow plug and let soak in a couple days. Then try the removal again. I don't know what the access to them is like. But drilling and easy outs and other techniques can help as well. Copper based anti seize on the threads of the new glow plug will help prevent problems in the future. ****, lead based anti seize is even better if you can find a smear in an old container somewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
So here is the most recent update, so the van is still in the shop, parts are in, but on further inspection, the injectors are also seized in the block, $800 a piece for those plus labor and who knows what else is wrong or needs fixed.
Now looking at a new motor as a a better fix for the van at a cost of $13,000 with the warranty.
What a mess...all for a seized glow plug.


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How exactly does a glow plug get seized in the block? Didn’t they say the glow plugs were in the head?

This might be a good warning for any diesel owner to remove the plugs and reinstall them with the correct type of anti-seize from time to time. I had a similar problem on my Sprinter but was able to coax 3 out if the 5 out eventually and it always started and ran just as well with only 3 plugs working from then on. If it was me I’d have those plugs in and out every year just to be sure they weren’t going to freeze up in the head.

Another good reason to get the gasser. Blow an engine and your looking at $5k bill max for a new engine. Why deal with diesel?
 

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So here is the most recent update, so the van is still in the shop, parts are in, but on further inspection, the injectors are also seized in the block, $800 a piece for those plus labor and who knows what else is wrong or needs fixed.
Now looking at a new motor as a a better fix for the van at a cost of $13,000 with the warranty.
What a mess...all for a seized glow plug.


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Block? The injectors are in the head, not in the block.

You wrote in a previous post that they said to You (or father) that they already removed the head from the engine.

I would contact FCA, doesn't matter if the Promaster is out of service since the dealership is an authorized Ram service point.

Injector does not cost to them (dealership) for sure USD 800 each. I don't know what is their markup over each part.

An engine in which ALL glow plugs are seized and ALL injectors are seized at the 110k miles well I would say is a little bit abnormal. So abnormal that should be investigated by FCA or FPT Industrial that is the manufacturer of the engine.

But the reasons could be also others.

It would be interesting to see what are the conditions of the head and what they have done or not done and what the eventual damages.

Maybe a service shop more specialized in diesel engines would give a better opinion about what can be done or what have been done.

Same engine (or very similar) is also used in Mitsubishi Fuso Canter.

Same family engine is one of the FPT Industrial marine engines, named S30. Not so used in North America, but FPT Industrial sells maritime engines in U.S.A. and so have service shops.

Probably doesn't use the Ram Promaster engine in their lineup, but one could also ask, to a service shop for tractor/construction equipment of Case IH, Case or New Holland that use FPT Industrial engines.
FPT Industrial, Case IH, Case, New Holland are all brands of CNH Industrial.
CNH Industrial is a spinoff of Fiat group, they were split about 2011/2012.

FPT Industrial is also the one that makes under its name the certification of Ram Promaster F1C 3.0 diesel engine at EPA and CARB.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I was mistaken, yes, the injectors and glow plugs are both in the head.
I think that dads thinking is that the new head, injectors, and plugs is going to be $8000 ish.


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How much to put it back together and drive it? Then look for a salvage engine that the salvage yard will let you pull the injectors and glow plugs to seal the deal. If they come out out you can heat the head you have and get some spares.
What they are telling you makes me suspicious they tried to pull them cold, a no-no.
Rich Maud gave good advice. Have them show you how they heated the head and the can of Kroil. [ame]https://www.amazon.com/Kano-Kroil-Penetrating-liquid-KROIL/dp/B000F09CF4/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1513820468&sr=1-1&keywords=kroil[/ame]

If they can’t get your Dad’s van out of there.
Here are 6 used engines:
https://www.lkqonline.com/2015/Dodge/Van-Promaster-1500/Engine-Compartment-Engine-Assembly/+h300-08784,300-08784+3-0L-diesel-VIN-D-8th-digit/
 

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I was mistaken, yes, the injectors and glow plugs are both in the head.
I think that dads thinking is that the new head, injectors, and plugs is going to be $8000 ish.


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In my opinion your father should call FCA customers service and explain what happened.

Doesn't matter if the warranty is expired, even if an indipendent company, it is a place that FCA says You should take your Promaster for repairs.

Also:
- The dealership is an authorized Ram service point, so they should be trained and give to customers a repair service with trained personnel and following FCA procedures.
- The piece could be defective. Sometimes automakers, and also FCA does it, make a "goodwill offer" and source the parts for free and the customer pays for the labour.

It seems to me a "little bit" abnormal that all the four glow plugs are seized and now also all the four injector are seized in a 110k miles engine.
It could happens, for different reasons, but for sure is not normal at all if one follows the FCA service/repair procedures to remove them and use the tools needed in a proper manner.

It could be seized if, for example water has dropped over the engine for long time, was a defect on european X250 (Fiat Ducato and PSA brothers) in first years of production. That time in Europe Fiat made a recall first they put a protection compound and than after a carter.
There should be also, if I remember well, a small drain hole on a side to let drip the water, but often can be plugged over time with debris.

So, if in your father Promaster, for any reason, there was a leak of water going on head, than FCA should pay for the damages even if warranty is expired.

That said I would add that dealership have to put on paper what they have done and find.

I would be bad, but one have to pay attention also to what they have done on the head. Sometimes it can be damaged while trying to remove plugs and/or injectors.

Ask your father to contact FCA.

The F1 engines family is not an engine on market since few years, the F1 family production started in 2000 for the 2.3 liter (F1A) and 2003 for the 3.0 (F1C).
Sometimes they publish some data about production, for example at end of 2013, in the italian engines plant were already manufactured 2 million of F1 engines (Ram Promaster engines arrives from the italian plant).
And there are also F1 engine plants in China
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Here is an update of the situation with the van.

The call to FCA yielded nothing, it's beyond the 100,000 mile warranty and because Dad is the second owner and the van was originally used as a commercial vehicle, he is out of luck.

The repair bill for the new head, plugs, injectors was going to be $9,000 ish with no warranty, so he opted for the new motor that would come with a warranty (at least that is what he was told at the time, now he is unsure if that will even be true)

Got the van back last Friday morning and took it back that night because now the transmission was not shifting. The repair shop is now telling him he needs a new transmission for an additional cost of $3,800.

Note that this is an "authorized" service center for the area.

What is frustrating is the van drove and shifted just fine but had a service glow plug code and now it has degraded to a full power train failure after 110,000 miles on the 3.0 ecodiesel.




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I’m quite new here and don’t have a promaster yet but shopping for one! Yesterday I went to see a 2015 PM diesel that has 50000km on it. Divide that by 1.6 you’ll get how many miles! Anyway got an appointment to see / try the van and when I got there, it was in the shop because when the mechanics did the inspection they found a faulty glow plug. They told me that when they tried to remove it, the glow plug broke cause it was seized and then they had to remove the head to fix it. So what I saw was basically a van that had no more bumper / hood / etc... looked scary and made me rethink my idea of buying a diesel!
 

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I could be wrong but I think they found other issues or they are numskulls. Lots of the stuff they removed is unnecessary for removing the head. I’d give them a chance to explain but running may be wise. A good diesel is a great van. There is a procedure for removing those glow plugs. They did not follow it! There is a kit and procedure for removing the broken one. They did not do that either. I predict that van will get a new head as they will ruin it instead of getting it to a good diesel shop who understands what it is doing. On second thought they ARE numskulls.
 

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Oh? Just wait until the gasser folks try to get those rusted spark plugs out after 5 years or so! And you have 6 of those and three are hard to get at. I hope they come right out but with 100K replacement timelines it does happen. Those guys mentioned above would probably have snapped a plug off too!
 

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Except that spark plugs have been changed with very few issues on Pentastar engines for quite some time. The glow plug / injector thing happens with many diesel engines - just head over the sprinter forum for plenty of reading on the issues.
 

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Look up spark plug breakage for 2004 to 2008 Ford trucks with 5.4L V8, I had one. Spark plug breakage is real as is glow plug breakage. The PS 3.6 may be immune to spark plug breakage and I wouldn’t know as I don’t have one but to argue that it doesn’t happen is just a ploy to diesel bash. Both engines will have to have these parts removed someday and some will be done by ham fisted numbskulls, breaking them or stripping the threads in part because they don’t follow procedures.
There are about 300,000 Ducatos, Boxers, Jumpers etc. produced A YEAR in Italy. Changing a glow plug is a procedure that is repeated hundreds of thousands of times a year there. It can be done.
 
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