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Question for the experts - it's OK to have the Renogy and Samlex not isolated from each other here?
 

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2021 Transit 148 HR
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Isn't it redundant to have a 60amp fuse coming out of the battery and a second 60amp fuse to your DC loads coming from the bus bar a few inches away? You have a maximum of 50 amps of charging, and a maximum of 60 amps of load, so what is that fuse accomplishing?

Also to simplify, have you considered using MRBF fuses? As in this product: MRBF fuse block
MRBF fuses start at 30 amps. I haven't used these, but they look like a huge space saver, and eliminate the need for additional fuse holders.

I was looking at your loads again, and since you have chargers attached, there is a good chance that you will have some vampire loads. And, if you have to take a trip, you really want to disconnect your battery to keep from draining it. So, I would position that battery disconnect switch in an accessible place.
 

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2014, 138WB, High Roof, Gas, SW MT
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This may be a minority opinion, but here is what I would do and why...

- Drop the bus bars and the 60 amp fuse or breaker -- connect the wires directly to your battery terminals.

- Skip the main disconnect.

For the small number of connections you have, the bus bars really add nothing except maybe a neater look.

The 60 amp fuse or breaker is redundant to the breakers you already have. Even if you retain the bus bars, the ABYC marine electrical code does not require protecting a very short run from bus bar to battery terminal.

If you don't have the 60 amp fuse in there, you will never have the aw-shucks experience of blowing the fuse and not having a spare.

Eliminating the components mentioned above eliminates something like 7 connections and a couple wires. A lot of RV electrical failures are at connections and at wires with poorly attached terminals. Connections that are poorly made or connections that corrode and develop resistance over time then overheat the terminals, melt the plastic the terminals are mounted on, and maybe even start a fire.

The main disconnect does give you the ability to disconnect everything at one place, and that's a plus. I don't have one, and just disconnect the one load that I don't want running when the van is parked between trips (the fridge). On the very rare occasions where I do want to turn everything off, I just flip the 3 breakers that go to all the loads -- I've done this maybe a couple times in 6 years. There may also be loads that you want to remain on even when the van is parked in the driveway between trips, so you would not be able to use the main disconnect anyway.

Be sure to consider what is going to keep the batteries up when the van is between trips. The only grief my system has come to in 6 years was when so much snow accumulated on the PV panels that they did not charge the house battery and it went flat and frooze. Batteries will self discharge over time even with no loads on them.

Anyway, which ever way you decide to go will work fine as long as you make the connections carefully. I really like the overall simplicity of your system -- I think most people end up with way more complicated systems than they need.

Gary
 

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It has been a few years since I installed my shunt, but I think you have the chassis ground shown on the wrong side of the shunt (I could be wrong, but worth a look).

71671


71672



If you think you can eliminate the bus as @GaryBIS suggested that may make it simpler (not sure of future expansions)

I have fewer negative connections than you (2 rings IIRC) & simply used the load side of my shunt as the negative bus
 

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Also for your consideration I post the following;


On my house battery bank I have one of these with a 200amp fuse on the positive terminal;

71673



If you eliminate the positive bus there are dual positive battery fuse holders;

71674
 

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2014 Ram Promaster 2500, 136WB, 3.6L gas, High Roof
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Discussion Starter #26
Question for the experts - it's OK to have the Renogy and Samlex not isolated from each other here?
Previous discussions regarding v1 did address this and in subsequent versions the Samlex is removed from the starting battery.
 

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2014 Ram Promaster 2500, 136WB, 3.6L gas, High Roof
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Discussion Starter #27
Isn't it redundant to have a 60amp fuse coming out of the battery and a second 60amp fuse to your DC loads coming from the bus bar a few inches away? You have a maximum of 50 amps of charging, and a maximum of 60 amps of load, so what is that fuse accomplishing?

Also to simplify, have you considered using MRBF fuses? As in this product: MRBF fuse block
MRBF fuses start at 30 amps. I haven't used these, but they look like a huge space saver, and eliminate the need for additional fuse holders.

I was looking at your loads again, and since you have chargers attached, there is a good chance that you will have some vampire loads. And, if you have to take a trip, you really want to disconnect your battery to keep from draining it. So, I would position that battery disconnect switch in an accessible place.
Yes, the 60A fuse coming out of the battery is redundant. In the discussion thus far, there appear to be two camps on this. Originally, I was leaning towards redundancy as a safety precaution, but as you and Gary have noted - it is not needed.

I looked at the MRBF, it would help simplify wiring, however the terminal fuses only go down to 30A and I need a 20A fuse. The Safety Hub 100 would work on reducing wiring and my application but it is more money.

This may be a minority opinion, but here is what I would do and why...

- Drop the bus bars and the 60 amp fuse or breaker -- connect the wires directly to your battery terminals.

- Skip the main disconnect.

For the small number of connections you have, the bus bars really add nothing except maybe a neater look.

The 60 amp fuse or breaker is redundant to the breakers you already have. Even if you retain the bus bars, the ABYC marine electrical code does not require protecting a very short run from bus bar to battery terminal.

If you don't have the 60 amp fuse in there, you will never have the aw-shucks experience of blowing the fuse and not having a spare.

Eliminating the components mentioned above eliminates something like 7 connections and a couple wires. A lot of RV electrical failures are at connections and at wires with poorly attached terminals. Connections that are poorly made or connections that corrode and develop resistance over time then overheat the terminals, melt the plastic the terminals are mounted on, and maybe even start a fire.

The main disconnect does give you the ability to disconnect everything at one place, and that's a plus. I don't have one, and just disconnect the one load that I don't want running when the van is parked between trips (the fridge). On the very rare occasions where I do want to turn everything off, I just flip the 3 breakers that go to all the loads -- I've done this maybe a couple times in 6 years. There may also be loads that you want to remain on even when the van is parked in the driveway between trips, so you would not be able to use the main disconnect anyway.

Be sure to consider what is going to keep the batteries up when the van is between trips. The only grief my system has come to in 6 years was when so much snow accumulated on the PV panels that they did not charge the house battery and it went flat and frooze. Batteries will self discharge over time even with no loads on them.

Anyway, which ever way you decide to go will work fine as long as you make the connections carefully. I really like the overall simplicity of your system -- I think most people end up with way more complicated systems than they need.

Gary
I hear you on the redundant 60A fuse and I'm going to remove it from the system.

I'll be sure to make good connections, whatever the system is. Thanks again.
 

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2014 Ram Promaster 2500, 136WB, 3.6L gas, High Roof
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Discussion Starter #28
It has been a few years since I installed my shunt, but I think you have the chassis ground shown on the wrong side of the shunt (I could be wrong, but worth a look).

View attachment 71671

View attachment 71672


If you think you can eliminate the bus as @GaryBIS suggested that may make it simpler (not sure of future expansions)

I have fewer negative connections than you (2 rings IIRC) & simply used the load side of my shunt as the negative bus
RV8R, good catch!

I'll be using the Smart Shunt but the wiring installation is the same as the model you listed. Per manual, "The negatives of all the loads and the charge sources in the system must be connected to the system minus side of the SmartShunt."

Additionally, "Note that there should be no other connections on the “BATTERY MINUS” connection of the SmartShunt. And similarly, there should be no other connections on the battery negative. Any loads or chargers here will not be included in the battery state of charge calculation."
 

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Great discussion LDR. All this input is helping me with a remodel of my system.
 
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2014 Ram Promaster 2500, 136WB, 3.6L gas, High Roof
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Discussion Starter #30
Yes, the 60A fuse coming out of the battery is redundant. In the discussion thus far, there appear to be two camps on this. Originally, I was leaning towards redundancy as a safety precaution, but as you and Gary have noted - it is not needed.

I looked at the MRBF, it would help simplify wiring, however the terminal fuses only go down to 30A and I need a 20A fuse. The Safety Hub 100 would work on reducing wiring and my application but it is more money.



I hear you on the redundant 60A fuse and I'm going to remove it from the system.

I'll be sure to make good connections, whatever the system is. Thanks again.
@jkmann looking at different fuse blocks eventually turned me onto the Safety Hub 150 and I think this is going to be a great solution for my wiring needs.

@GaryBIS I was able to reduce 8 connections and simplify wiring with the latest iteration. v4 attached.
 

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2014, 138WB, High Roof, Gas, SW MT
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Hi,
That BlueSea Safety Hub 150 is pretty slick.
Eliminates the need for a separate DC fuse box and provides the three high amp circuits for a future inverter/charger if you decide to add one.
It only gives you the 6 DC circuits, which you have pretty much used up, but some of your circuits are pretty light draw and could easily be doubled up if at some time in the future you want to add something like a 12 volt fridge.

Its a bit on the pricey side at $98, but when you figure up the cost of all the components its replacing it gets cheap -- and BlueSea make high quality stuff.
As you say, eliminates a lot of connections, and saves some space, as it really compact.

You do lose the flexibility of having breakers and will have to carry spare fuses, but small price to pay. And, fuses are very reliable and provide very predictable performance, unlike a lot of cheap breakers.

Anyone see any downsides to this approach???

I would consider going with higher gauge wire into the safety hub, so that later if you want to add a high load DC device (eg an inverter), you won't have to change out that wire.

It looks to me like your chassis ground is on the wrong side of the shunt? You want all return current to have no choice but to go through the shunt.

I think you should get the Electronics Innovation Award for the year with this solution :)

Looking forward to seeing some pictures when you get it installed.

Gary
 

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136" 2500 HR Gasser - Build Mode Activated
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@jkmann looking at different fuse blocks eventually turned me onto the Safety Hub 150 and I think this is going to be a great solution for my wiring needs.

@GaryBIS I was able to reduce 8 connections and simplify wiring with the latest iteration. v4 attached.
Not sure if your lights are intended to be all overhead (i see you have a dual zone which is smart), but I am really glad I installed an LED striplight under the kitchen cabinets that hang above my kitchen area. With the van being so tight, the cabinets really block overhead light when prepping and cooking on the counter. Something to consider.
 

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2014 Ram Promaster 2500, 136WB, 3.6L gas, High Roof
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Discussion Starter #33
Hi,
That BlueSea Safety Hub 150 is pretty slick.
Eliminates the need for a separate DC fuse box and provides the three high amp circuits for a future inverter/charger if you decide to add one.
It only gives you the 6 DC circuits, which you have pretty much used up, but some of your circuits are pretty light draw and could easily be doubled up if at some time in the future you want to add something like a 12 volt fridge.

Its a bit on the pricey side at $98, but when you figure up the cost of all the components its replacing it gets cheap -- and BlueSea make high quality stuff.
As you say, eliminates a lot of connections, and saves some space, as it really compact.

You do lose the flexibility of having breakers and will have to carry spare fuses, but small price to pay. And, fuses are very reliable and provide very predictable performance, unlike a lot of cheap breakers.

Anyone see any downsides to this approach???

I would consider going with higher gauge wire into the safety hub, so that later if you want to add a high load DC device (eg an inverter), you won't have to change out that wire.

It looks to me like your chassis ground is on the wrong side of the shunt? You want all return current to have no choice but to go through the shunt.

I think you should get the Electronics Innovation Award for the year with this solution :)

Looking forward to seeing some pictures when you get it installed.

Gary
A higher gauge wire from the safety hub to the house battery is a good consideration for potential growth.

Re: shunt wiring, see above discussion with RV8R. I reviewed the manual and confirmed that the chassis ground needs to be wired from the "system" side of the shunt.

Pictures, yeah, I was thinking about putting together a build slide in my profile after this project was completed (might be a few months...)
 

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2014 Ram Promaster 2500, 136WB, 3.6L gas, High Roof
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Discussion Starter #34
Not sure if your lights are intended to be all overhead (i see you have a dual zone which is smart), but I am really glad I installed an LED striplight under the kitchen cabinets that hang above my kitchen area. With the van being so tight, the cabinets really block overhead light when prepping and cooking on the counter. Something to consider.
Good considerations for sure. I don't know if I'll get upper cabinets in this year, but adding a few more puck lights should be an easy addition to this system. In a pinch, I'll have a few usb sockets that I can use for strip LEDs if needed.
 

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2014, 138WB, High Roof, Gas, SW MT
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Well, it never pays to disagree with RV :)

But, it seems like if you are an electron returning from the BlueSea 150, you will have a choice of going directly down chassis ground line OR going through the shunt to the negative battery terminal?? That does not seem right to me? What say you RV? I'm probably missing something?

Gary
 

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Well, it never pays to disagree with RV :)

But, it seems like if you are an electron returning from the BlueSea 150, you will have a choice of going directly down chassis ground line OR going through the shunt to the negative battery terminal?? That does not seem right to me? What say you RV? I'm probably missing something?

Gary
Hey @GaryBIS

I’m not familiar with the Bluesea 150 & on my first van I was lucky enough to have a very experienced electrician patiently explain things to me until the light bulbs finally lit, so I am a novice in this field myself.

On my BM712; IIRC only the battery connects to the battery side of the shut & all other “negative” wires connect to the “load” side (including the chassis ground). As I understand it - so that the shut can read back the monitored items “isolated” to be one path only to the house battery.

I believe if not hooked up this way the electrons will still move (the system will still function) - but the Battery Monitor will be “lying” to you.

So what is the point in that. It is a Battery Monitor after all not an Air Speed Indicator 😜 those devils lie to us “all the time”

I’m not sure I even answered your question

edit; I downloaded version #4 of the electrical plan & yes innovation award 👍

Not knowing anything of the Bluesea 150 or if that is showing wires correct (It looks like the shore power charger could connect to “larger scale” lugs on the schematic?)

71751



I think this is a good basic system. It might be worth running over sized wires incase future needs change & a bigger system is rebuilt (but might be able to utilize the original wire). For example if at some point you added battery capacity & wanted to give them more charge current than 20 or 15 amps. It is an extra cost for bigger wire vs possible future benefit.
 

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2014, 138WB, High Roof, Gas, SW MT
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Well, it never pays to disagree with RV :)

But, it seems like if you are an electron returning from the BlueSea 150, you will have a choice of going directly down chassis ground line OR going through the shunt to the negative battery terminal?? That does not seem right to me? What say you RV? I'm probably missing something?

Gary
Sorry - bad advice.

The ground has to be where you have it so that if you do any DC circuits where the chassis ground is the return path will end up going through the shunt. If the ground is on the battery side of the shunt, than current for circuits that use the chassis as the return path will bypass the shunt.

For your setup, as drawn it won't make any difference since you don't have any circuits that use the chassis as the return (right now).

Gary
 

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Sorry - bad advice.

The ground has to be where you have it so that if you do any DC circuits where the chassis ground is the return path will end up going through the shunt. If the ground is on the battery side of the shunt, than current for circuits that use the chassis as the return path will bypass the shunt.

For your setup, as drawn it won't make any difference since you don't have any circuits that use the chassis as the return (right now).

Gary
Thanks @GaryBIS

I do not have a B2B in my system, but direct(ish) from the PM alternator & I use my “chassis” ground to complete my alternator charging circuit.

If @LDR is going to “chassis” ground his house system he might as well put it on the correct side of the shunt.

It looked to me he was planning “home run” negative wires with everything & might not even need a “chassis” ground, but he originally showed it on the wrong side of the shunt & I was waiting for other members to mention it before my 1st post. That & it had been a couple of years since my install (a bit rusty in my thinking).

Regardless; I think your advice in post# 23 for “simplification” & less “connections” was golden 👍

If it is a minority opinion, I sure share it with you !!
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Hey @GaryBIS

I’m not familiar with the Bluesea 150 & on my first van I was lucky enough to have a very experienced electrician patiently explain things to me until the light bulbs finally lit, so I am a novice in this field myself.

On my BM712; IIRC only the battery connects to the battery side of the shut & all other “negative” wires connect to the “load” side (including the chassis ground). As I understand it - so that the shut can read back the monitored items “isolated” to be one path only to the house battery.

I believe if not hooked up this way the electrons will still move (the system will still function) - but the Battery Monitor will be “lying” to you.

So what is the point in that. It is a Battery Monitor after all not an Air Speed Indicator 😜 those devils lie to us “all the time”

I’m not sure I even answered your question

edit; I downloaded version #4 of the electrical plan & yes innovation award 👍

Not knowing anything of the Bluesea 150 or if that is showing wires correct (It looks like the shore power charger could connect to “larger scale” lugs on the schematic?)

View attachment 71751


I think this is a good basic system. It might be worth running over sized wires incase future needs change & a bigger system is rebuilt (but might be able to utilize the original wire). For example if at some point you added battery capacity & wanted to give them more charge current than 20 or 15 amps. It is an extra cost for bigger wire vs possible future benefit.
Blue Sea makes MIDI fuses down to 30A, then blade type fuses below that (they don't make a 20A MIDI).

Yeah, running bigger wire is something to consider here for potential growth.
 

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Blue Sea makes MIDI fuses down to 30A, then blade type fuses below that (they don't make a 20A MIDI).

Yeah, running bigger wire is something to consider here for potential growth.
I think I understand 👍

So you are then “back feeding” the charge circuits from the load side?

If you increase you wire size for your 15amp charger (incase of future upgrades), you then upsize the fuse to a 30A & then use the bigger “lugs (incase of future upgrades)?

I am not sure of the distances (best to get the 12v side as close to the batteries as possible, as the 120v length does not matter as much). I do believe we install fuses to primarily protect the wires, upsize the wire = bigger fuse if you want?

The other benefit of the bigger wire is a smaller voltage drop.
 
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