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Car and Driver has no love for the ProMaster

25K views 64 replies 28 participants last post by  Kip-on-truckin 
#1 ·
The October issue of Car and Driver has a van-comparison article, comparing the Transit, Sprinter, and ProMaster.

The Transit wins, with the Sprinter a close second, and the ProMaster a very distant third.

They had a lot of criticism for all aspects of it, and in particular hated the automated-manual transmission (they only evaluated the diesel).

What gives? Could it really be this bad? A lot of people on this forum seem to love their ProMasters.
 
#2 ·
Car and Driver isn't the rag it was when David E Davis started it. Now if it has a star or rings on the front of it or you buy a lot of advertising from them you tend to see the results in the reviews.

Any and all test comparisons are suspect because of external forces. Reality doesn't always shine in these kinds of "tests"! Even Consumer Reports has huge biases built in in their tests and recommendations and they are probably the most reputable of the lot.

From what I can read here on a daily basis there are perhaps two or three Promaster owners who are unhappy with their purchase - hardly any sort of condemnation of the Promaster. Ford is first because they are the biggest, MBZ comes in second because of the typical consumers misplaced belief in their higher quality (if it cost more it must be better) and the Promaster comes in third because of the horrible marketing by Fiat. Nissan NV, everyone agrees it is a POS!
 
#6 ·
Hey Chris, Do you have a link?

... Nissan NV, everyone agrees it is a POS! ...
Uh, apparently not, I just googled car and driver promaster articles, and the articles I was reading are placing the Promaster FOURTH, just BELOW the Nissan.. ?? One article said the Promaster was the quickest in its class 0-60. The next said the Ford was faster. One review was based on the Promaster Diesel only.. I think they are running the $1,800 upgraded ecoboost against the PM V-6 in another.. reviews and comparisons are tough if you don't compare apples to apples. Its hard to compare a $28,000 vehicle to a $46,730 one.. Unless cost is just thrown out of the equation, in which case the Mercedes MIGHT look more interesting.. (and actually, just for kicks, I just quickly built out a Mercedes on their site (which may NOT have included all the options I need), and it seems to be about the SAME price as the Ford! :eek: (as Car and Driver tested it)

I have no interest in the Mercedes because of cost, cost of ownership, and its tall skinny stature, no interest in the NV because its so ugly I would be embarrassed to be seen in it (and its too small). Iv'e owned several Ford E series vans and loved them, so I am not "anti"-ford. But after driving the Transit (with their STD engine), I decided it not only was ugly, but it was a dog compared to all the gasser PM's I have driven (empty OR the Travato RV). The ford may have a slightly more "refined" cab, but heh, I'm not that "refined" a guy anyway. :) The ford seems heavier, slower, and "mushier" driving to me despite what any "professional critic" thinks.. Its always a matter of taste and your intended use I guess. If I needed to tow allot, I'd probably be considering the Ford. I'm interested in the PM for use as an RV/self built weekender and it seems to fit the bill perfectly (and the "bill" fits my budget best also)...
 
#9 ·
Both PM transmissions are hurting this van. If I recall correctly even the Iveco Daily RWD diesel van with the very similar Diesel engine went to an 8-speed automatic.

In my opinion it was a huge mistake to use a single-clutch Automated Manual Transmission with the diesel in US. Americans have gotten used to fast shifts of automatics, and the AMT is way too slow to mimic a real automatic. Perhaps Europeans accustomed to manual transmissions find it acceptable by comparison.

And the 6-speed auto of the gasoline engine is no better. By today's standard it's clearly subpar. Yeah, it works OK and gets the job done but most people expect far more from a new vehicle.

Both transmissions need replacing if the PM is to do better in marketplace or in competitive reviews. I'm not implying previous buyers made mistakes or accepted an inferior product. I'm just saying that the van is pretty good but the transmissions are the weak links. And they should be replaced ASAP.
 
#10 ·
I drove them all, money was no object, I chose the PM over the Transit and Sprinter:

FWD: Better handling, more efficient, better traction

Diesel: Good balance of power to efficiency, nice power band, not overly loud.

Transmission: I have been driving a manual transmission since I was sixteen; gave up a manual tranny Nissan Frontier to get a PM, so I like to be in control and "feel" the ride. I love the PM single auto manual, it is my favorite tranny of all time, it gives the option of being an auto, it'll downshift for me in to turns and when coming to stops, but I can still shift when I want.

Appearance: I think the PM is the best looking of the "four" big vans, but looks don't really count...

RideQuality: Well, the PM lost the ride quality when new BUT since I removed the secondary springs it is riding with the best.

Size: Okay, which van comes in a short (118") wheelbase? Yup, Mercedes ditched their shorty, Ford didn't see the need, so it was Fiat/Ram who made it happen. I love my PM 118", it is right sized for my needs.

The little things: Interior lights that time out. Comfortable seating. Wide enough to sleep crossways. Low load height. Good front end ground clearance. Powerful brakes. Good combo of tow and haul. Excellent headlights and fog lights. Easy to use controls. Powerful heat/AC. Reasonable pricing.

I think the PM is for people who like to drive and use their vehicle like a truck. If you want car like performance, then the Sprinter or the Transit will be preferred.

Magazine writers are in the business of making money for their magazine, so of course they favored Ford (domestic) with a big budget for advertising, over Mercedes (Foreign) and Ram (Foreign and small taters).

My buddy's Sprinter is down with EGR valve issues ;)
 
#16 ·
Transmission: I have been driving a manual transmission since I was sixteen; gave up a manual tranny Nissan Frontier to get a PM, so I like to be in control and "feel" the ride. I love the PM single auto manual, it is my favorite tranny of all time, it gives the option of being an auto, it'll downshift for me in to turns and when coming to stops, but I can still shift when I want.

Couldn't agree more. I learned to drive on a manual and I have strongly preferred them my whole life. I warmed up to the auto clutch immediately. I absolutely love it.
 
#17 ·
I pretty much gave up on all my car and truck mags 30 years ago. They are all advertiser driven and unless I'm killing time in a doctors waiting room full of them I wouldn't even pick one up to quickly scan thru.

Now that I think of it, I don't even subscribe to any magazines anymore. If I want to be deceived and mislead all I have to do is watch TV and it's even free!
 
#12 ·
After 400 miles on my Promaster Diesel I can say I'm not crazy about the transmission. We'll see how I feel after more time. I also feel some of the workmanship is of poor quality. Time will tell with the van, but it's a work van and my care level is not high. I got such a deal on it I can overlook things I normally wouldn't.
 
#13 ·
I think Car and Driver are Ford fanboys. Earlier they tested a gas 1500 ProMaster and claimed they could only muster 14 mpg with an empty van! I have never gotten below 15.5 and usually get 18 with my loaded van. They also stated that the Transit Eco Boost got 22 mpg! I've been looking at the mpg threads on the Transit forums and they regularly report 14-17 mpg with 14 being more common and a few have gotten 19 on all highway miles. There is also a thread over there about the brake pads only lasting 15K miles. I had a van like that and I am done with that crap!

A more work truck oriented/contractor review would find the ProMaster on top. It is rated the best contractor van in Europe.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I now have 18,000 miles on my Promaster 136" low roof. I got it in December last year and was initially very upset because the diesel one that I had ordered was delayed and delayed so I ended up with one with a gas engine. I run long distances at times to trade shows where my company exhibits and have the van loaded with 2 to 2500 lbs of marine diesel engines and exhibition equipment. Now that I have gone from eastern NC to Chicago, to Miami, to Portland in Maine, I continue to be amazed that this van is so comfortable on a long run, has plenty of power and the fuel consumption has steadily been getting a little better. Now I average 20 MPG with rural running and 17 to 18 at 70 to 75 MPH.

The u connect system works well and the whole dash is a lot better looking than the Transit. The extra height inside is fabulous . I don't regret the purchase one bit and I certainly don't heed the expertise of people who are used to writing articles about sports cars for a living when they never live with a commercial vehicle or know how to use one.
 

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#19 · (Edited)
Thanks for the heads up. May have to take a look at the C&R article, even though I've eliminated Sprinter & NV.

The October issue of Car and Driver has a van-comparison article, comparing the Transit, Sprinter, and ProMaster.

The Transit wins, with the Sprinter a close second, and the ProMaster a very distant third.

They had a lot of criticism for all aspects of it, and in particular hated the automated-manual transmission (they only evaluated the diesel).
Have been a Ford fanboy, but also wanted a Fiat 242/Citroen C35 for decades. Both Ford & Ram have disappointed me. Ford should've kept FWD & 6 spd manual. Ram should produce a passenger PM & 6 spd manual.

Did C&R's article only evaluate the diesel ACROSS THE BOARD?
 
#20 ·
Thanks for the heads up. May have to take a look at the C&R article, even though I've eliminated Sprinter & NV.



Have been a Ford fanboy, but also wanted a Fiat 242/Citroen C35 for decades. Both Ford & Ram have disappointed me. Ford should've kept FWD & 6 spd manual. Ram should produce a passenger PM & 6 spd manual.

Did C&R's article only evaluate the diesel ACROSS THE BOARD?
Jumper unfortunately the 6 speed manual anything for cars sold in the USA is a thing of the past unless you purchase a sports car or a small pickup truck. The American buying public wants auto everything plus, the sales would suffer because of this fact. The manufacturers want to sell as many units as possible hence the automatic transmission in most vehicles sold here.
 
#23 ·
I thought the gas/tranny PM combo was quite nice, certainly equal to or better than the base gas/auto tranny Transit; I nearly bought one but the diesel was just too nice :)

Some folks have suggested that the PM gas/auto tranny is nothing more than a Dodge Caravan set up, but I don't see that. They may share some similarities on the surface, but it is a much stronger tranny and it is well matched to the PM. It also drive really well.

Drive them both, don't trust anyone's opinion.
 
#22 ·
I think the answer is "go drive it"... I have heard several people complain it should be a nine speed, I just read an article that said it was a great transmission to run around town in, but not so great on the highway, another article said it "effortlessly passed traffic" at highway speeds, I've heard complaints regarding too big a gap between 5th and 6th gear...

I don't own one yet, so I have limited driving experience, I'm sure more will chime in, but I gotta tell you, every time I get in and drive one (a gasser), it puts a smile on my face. I love its peppy feel and have not really experienced any noticeable trouble on the highway... I'm sure there are things to criticize, but I like the transmission better than any of the 10 or so other vans I have driven in my life (Fords, Chevys, and Dodge).
 
#24 ·
I have the gas engine in my 136/low and the transmission is extremely smooth. I have taken trips on the interstate with head winds/cross winds/tail winds etc.. and the PM performed flawlessly even when passing going up inclines. In addition, some of these trips where 10hrs or longer non stop and when I got out of the van I felt like I had just driven down to the corner store-no soreness or fatigue. With out a doubt the most comfortable van I have driven and have had all of them at one time or another.
 
#28 ·
Was inquiring about the idea ProMaster & Caravan transmissions merely "may share some similarities on the surface".

As to "why would this matter?" I'm not sure if the issue would be "Is the transmission model considered inferior?" Or will a transmission developed for a minivan have reliability issues when used in a full size commercial van with so much higher GVW?
 
#29 ·
These vans have been on the road long enough now that reliability issues would have surfaced by now. I haven't heard of anyone having issues with them. One advantage to having a transmission that is used in a high volume of vehicles, is that if the need ever arises you can find them in the salvage yards easily. If it is a reliable unit it keeps the price low on them In the yards.

-t
 
#32 ·
I can see them ranking the Transit above the PM. The PM fits my needs better and the mileage is a huge deal in my world, but I think as vans they are competitive. If you take the powertrains out of the equation, I think they are about equal. The Ford is a little nicer, the PM a little cheaper.

A couple things I can add - the 62TE was a turd....in 2003 but has long since been fine. Next year they will upgrade to the 9 speed in the minivan, and it would make sense to do the same in the PM. Thus, all our transmission arguments will be moot. For me, the 62TE is more than adequate, and I'm happier that it's had a decade of production and refinement than I would be with an extra gear or two.

I've never driven the robot, but ALL Ford Focus automatics have been robotized manuals for a few years now and nobody seems to mind. A large portion of class 8 trucks have been robots for over a decade and they seem to work. In a sports car I want a real manual, but in a van I value other things. If they gave me a choice of a manual or the robot, I'd pay extra not to have to shift and let the computer concentrate on maximizing clutch life.

That the Nissan isn't dead last is crazy. Of the 5 trucks (Big 3 + Tundra and Frontier) the Nissan is the worst. The NV is just a truck with a bubble on top. If you wanted something that kinda was like a van except worse in every way, you'd be better off fabricating a silly hat to put on a better truck to begin with. A Chevy, Dodge, or aluminum Ford would be a WAY better place to start.

Anyway, don't put all your trust in magazine reviews. Consumer Reports particularly - they jumped the shark long ago. CR says the Tesla is so good it broke their testing procedure, yet they've required 4 motor and 3 battery replacements in theirs. Wards and JD power too - their reliability scores really only measure how confusing the infotainment system is. Silly.
 
#43 ·
I've never driven the robot, but ALL Ford Focus automatics have been robotized manuals for a few years now and nobody seems to mind.
Not quite. They are dual clutch systems, also knows as Dual Sequential Gearboxes. One of the clutch shafts has gears 1, 3 and 5 while the other has 2, 4 and 6. When you shift from 1st to 2nd, you're changing from one output shaft to the other. The unused shaft then receives input from the engine control module that it is accelerating and it gets 3rd gear ready on the other clutch shaft for a faster shift.

In the ProMaster there is just one shaft, so shifts take much longer.
 
#35 ·
Speaking of Bitch'n. C&D does not have a clue about this area of automoblia, they are about Camaros and Mustangs. I am at about 1500 miles and no complaints. No squeeling brakes, no water in the marker lights, no CEL on my diesel, three tanks of gas @27+ mpg, no radiator smell or leak, no trouble opening the doors, no squeeky bushings, no bitchi'n to be done! BTW I'd be driving more but am too busy converting. I'll get some pictures up on my thread soon.
 
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