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DIY camper conversion costs?

30K views 53 replies 16 participants last post by  Motor7 
#1 ·
There's been a lot of discussion about DIY RV conversions based on PM vans, and it's made me wonder about potential cost savings. Any ideas or feedback on how much the average project ends up costing?

Since labor is mostly free (assuming you do everything yourself as a hobby), but materials may cost more when purchased retail, it would seem that savings favor simpler builds when comparable in scope. If we tried building a very fancy or more complex van it may end up costing nearly as much. As an example, I'm guessing an Onan generator may cost us as much as it does Winnebago. Same with lithium batteries that don't involve much labor.

I know we can easily build a basic camper a little more functional than a tent for a couple of $1,000s, but can also see spending a small fortune if trying to replicate a Winnebago Travato.

So, any guess what an "average" project ends up costing -- not counting van? Are we talking $5k, $10k, $20k or more? And what does that buy you by comparison.


I know these are highly subjective questions and that's OK. There's got to be a wide range of project scopes.
 
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#2 ·
I posted my plans and a product list to budget from at http://www.promasterforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37177
Since then I have found some items for less but I think the figures are a good ballpark number + - perhaps $500
I have modified the crude plans a bit to only close the center section of the bed to make a sofa with two storage spaces on the sides during the day thus giving me two 50"+ spaces to store some long items underneath it. But no significant changes. I ordered a diesel 136" high top with full interior panels which I will remove to insulate and replace for the interior. The units will be modular and removable except for the heater section of the floor under the dinette. I am a cabinet builder w/tools.
This is a very complete build out w/o under chassis tanks and with porta-pottie. so it is not Travato level or cost but is very inexpensive in comparison to options. Note that going to a 3500 159 ext van would cost about the same as my build. I hope this helps.
 
#6 ·
....cut.... I hope this helps.
It does, thanks. With the exception of air conditioning it has much of what I may want and then some. For my use solar doesn't help much. That could pay for AC. A shower in a larger van would be nice and may add a little cost to conversion.

In looking at factory Class Bs, the cost above that of bare van seems to be in range of $40k to $50k.

Using the 80:20 rule, any conversion that costs no more than $8k to $10k will be a bargain if it offers me 80% of the utility of a factory unit.
 
#5 ·
RDinNHandAZ -
How do you attach cabinetry to the the floor and/or walls? Using L-shape brackets and rivnuts?
Why not 159 ext van?
You need to go to my post. I have made all the reasons clear I think. As for fastening: Rivnuts to the ribs of the camper, floor held down by the built in anchor points, and the cabinets attached to he floor with "D" rings and these:
 
#4 ·
I've spent less than $6000 on my conversion, including solar. No propane or extra heat, including micro & fridge, all materials, roof fan, extra windows, flooring, sink, extra bucket seats in the back, portapotty, inverter, two AGM batteries, 2000w inverter, foam mattress, headliner, insulation, wall panelling, steps, etc.

All labor was my own.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for heads up. Will be in that area later this week and may stop by. I've heard some bad things about La Mesa but may take a look anyway. Their web site shows Travatos from $67k and up. I didn't see any at $60k. Still a good price.

Are you doing all labor? How much will you spend on materials/equipment? Which amenities are driving cost higher? Seems significantly higher than other DIY projects. Not saying it's not worth extra cost.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I really think that is the important issue. We have camped for years in our pop-up pickup camper and know what we want. We have not really needed a real toilet, shower or air conditioner. We seldom camp at electric hookups and wouldn't think of running a generator. We want heat, a nice bed and galley, an outside shower occasionally, and a place to relax, read, compute, and do that far from campgrounds when needed. I find most manufactured units ugly inside. To me they look cheap like plastic laminated to wood chip board. They have way more stuff than we want. AND I want to do it so I am satisfied, have a quality product and understand all its parts.
 
#20 ·
#21 ·
...cut....

To us, getting what we want and not getting a bunch of stuff we don't want is just as important as the cost saving. Also being free to chose the smaller PM and keeping the weight down significantly helps the fuel consumption and emissions.

Gary
I agree that not getting (i.e. - deleting) what you don't want can have as much value as getting what you do want.

When I owned a Class C years ago there were things I didn't want. Size was one. Occasionally the larger size was great but driving it was more tiring, it was noisy, harder to park, and fuel economy horrendous. Washing it after a trip was also a lot more work. I also had to do too much "house related" maintenance that I haven't needed on my present DIY van -- granted it's a little too simple.

I'm hoping my next RV will split the difference. I want the best of both to the degree I can meld them together. With new Euro vans I'll have much more space but retain fuel economy, ease of driving, etc....

I want to keep it simple by going all electric if lithium battery costs keep dropping, no generator, no oven, no solar, no roof penetrations, etc... I want it to be more of a travel vehicle with lots of creature comforts for sleeping, eating and lounging when needed.

I can easily justify spending between $10,000 and $15,000 on a relatively simple conversion if it ends up looking "fairly" professional and has top quality materials and fixtures.

If the price was going to be over $15k then I would purchase because of higher future resale. As a middle ground I'm also considering a custom build by someone like Sportsmobile, but their pricing seems to be increasing too rapidly.

Thanks all for feedback. Knowing many have stayed around or below $6k gives me hope that it shouldn't take more than twice that as long as I remain reasonable with design.
 
#23 · (Edited)
My PM is on order and I'm sourcing supplies now with the very helpful input from this forum. My daily driver/work van/RV conversion-for-one is similar to GaryBIS but simpler: propane, single aux battery, wall mounted AC, shore hookup, engine powered inverter, 5 gallon fresh water for consumption and shower, bucket gray water, porta-potty, no solar. Addressing one of your questions; the cost drivers for me are furnace, fridge, and awning. The simplest by design, function, and ease of install is a roof mounted Fiamma awning. It is also the most expensive at over $1K; however it is a big part of enjoying my road trips.

OOps, forgot windows. They can be expensive or not depending on design and they certainly are the cause of much angst when cutting the hole.
 
#28 ·
The heater is easy. Espar D2 airtronic available for $900 from BunkHeaters.com <http://commerce.idmi.net/ecommerce/catalog.asp?CID=199&CI=5288> or a China clone for $425 <http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2KW-12V-Diesel-Air-Parking-Heater_682245187.html> . Runs on diesel if your van is so equipped but gas ones can be had. For $600 an RV heater would do it but they need propane- not for me.
I can't imagine having a battery set (and solar?) enough to run an AC overnight. I wonder if someone has done it and has successful experience?
 
#29 · (Edited)
I can't imagine having a battery set (and solar?) enough to run an AC overnight. I wonder if someone has done it and has successful experience?
Well, I haven't done it yet but this is my plan. I bought the Autoclima U-Go because it is the most efficient 12v A/C available with the Danfoss compressor. I plan on running it near the highest setting (level 5 or 6 draws ~32amps) all day when sunny and the lowest or next to lowest (1 or 2 draws ~16amps) all night. 600w solar should be fine to power it all day and 480Ah battery should power it all night.
 
#33 · (Edited)
OK lets look at what the system needs to be to run this. If we take the inverter + heater and have an 80-90 percent efficiency then we need about 600 watts for perhaps 5 hours to get through the night for heat or cooling. 600 watts draws 50 amps and so the total use for just the heat or AC is 250 amp-hr for the night. Most batteries are rated to draw down only 50 percent so you would need 500 amp hours of battery. You would need to recharge the 250 amp hours in the day so with 6 hours of sunlight a solar system would need to be 500 watts, really some more as the solar won't produce full power most days- probably 800? You could run the engine and charge the batteries but if you have 50 amps left from the vehicle's needs it will need to run for 5 hours at highway speed to do that.
I also need a refrigerator, lights, pump etc. which is why I thought the diesel heater might save money and AC is so often run off a small generator because it is cheaper than what the battery system costs. This also explains why so many RVs need an electric hook up.
Let us know how it goes.

EDIT- I just realized you want to run the AC BOTH night and day which would require BOTH the solar and 5 hours of running the van. Wow not for me! I'd buy a 2000 watt quiet generator or drive with the AC on to where it is cooler which is my plan anyway! Perhaps find an electric hook-up on those few hot-humid nights I cannot stand the heat.
 
#35 ·
OK lets look at what the system needs to be to run this. If we take the inverter + heater and have an 80-90 percent efficiency then we need about 600 watts for perhaps 5 hours to get through the night for heat or cooling. 600 watts draws 50 amps and so the total use for just the heat or AC is 250 amp-hr for the night. ...cut....
Heat should be 100 percent efficiency. In reality, more than that as calculated for battery capacity because battery heat (provided inside van) also contributes to heating. So if we need 500 watts of heat, battery electric load can be slightly less than 500 watts -- rest coming from batteries literally getting warm inside van. Minor point though. I need more juice because I want to sleep longer than 5 hours.

AC is biggest problem because inverter and battery heat are both inside van so they work against AC.

We travel during days so both heat and AC will come from engine. I only need to worry about occasional nights off grid (where generators are not permitted).

My needs are very different than jostalli's. That's why solar doesn't make sense for me.

By the way, lithium batteries reportedly can be discharged to 20%. That saves on capacity. It all comes down to cost per amp-hour. Still expensive but getting close to built-in Onan diesel generator along with inverter and smaller battery bank.
 
#36 ·
More than 100 percent efficient? 2nd law of thermodynamics says no. Nitpick I know. I have to believe the smallest Onan diesel generator will be cheaper to buy than enough Li-Ion batteries and both have a lifetime. In my tools and computer I get about 8 years with declining output. I doubt the generator will be worn out by then. I assumed you would run the cooling (and heat) half the time but if you ran the heat half as hot it would average out to about the same. Still 250 Amp Hours for the night.

I wonder if you could get by an occasionally hot off grid night by using one of the ice chest coolers? I really cannot see having that much sunk into batteries for a few times a year? I have never used one in a camper but bought one to try. Not bad in Arizona where the humidity is low. This one avoids that problem: There are much cheaper ones. Mine blows air over the ice and cost $50 including the cooler. Ice is extra.
 
#37 ·
More than 100 percent efficient? 2nd law of thermodynamics says no. Nitpick I know. I have to believe the smallest Onan diesel generator will be cheaper to buy than enough Li-Ion batteries and both have a lifetime. In my tools and computer I get about 8 years with declining output. I doubt the generator will be worn out by then. I assumed you would run the cooling (and heat) half the time but if you ran the heat half as hot it would average out to about the same. Still 250 Amp Hours for the night.

I wonder if you could get by an occasionally hot off grid night by using one of the ice chest coolers? I really cannot see having that much sunk into batteries for a few times a year? I have never used one in a camper but bought one to try. Not bad in Arizona where the humidity is low. This one avoids that problem: http://www.amazon.com/GoCool-Portab...33&sr=8-11&keywords=ice+chest+air+conditioner There are much cheaper ones. Mine blows air over the ice and cost $50 including the cooler. Ice is extra.
Yes, I'm very aware of laws of thermodynamics, that's why I CLEARLY stated that it was as it related to calculating battery capacity, right?

If you use the batteries "RATED CAPACITY", you'll actually get more than that in heat. The batteries inefficiency due to internal resistance produces heat that is usable in warming the van.


As to any generator, my premise is that that is not an option in many places. The last time I camped on North Rim of Grand Canyon there was no shore power and very limited generator use. A generator is no doubt the cheapest option, provided it's an option at all.

Ice coolers don't work enough to be a practical option. That's simple math. Just apply a little of that thermodynamics.:)
 
#38 ·
Oh Oh I gotta stop....

I agree that because the entire system of battery, inverter, wires, cooler, heater whatever is inside the van the conversion is close to 100 percent efficient. I reread your post and as I am not that sure how batteries are rated it actually was not clear to me. Your point is well taken though and I stand corrected on your intent. Thanks.

Heat of fusion of water is about 144 BTU/lb so to absorb 5000 BTUs would require melting (no change in temperature mind you) of 35 lbs. of ice. Quite a lot. If you had a cooler with 70 lbs of ice and used it until it was all melted and heated to 72 degrees temperature it would absorb about 12,900 BTUs of heat enough for about 2.5 hours. It won't work as you said, I'm giving up on that hair brained notion! This is why we need to use some facts before we spend $400 on something that won't work. Double thanks!
 
#40 ·
Let's keep it simple.

You've probably heard of "one ton of refrigeration"? Like when you buy a 3-ton AC unit (or whatever size) for your house? Well, one ton of air conditioning is just that, the equivalent of melting one ton of ice per day. And that's the equivalent of an AC with 12,000 BTU/hour cooling capacity.

So if you have one of those roof mounted ACs on your van that cool just above 12,000 BTU/hr, it would take 2000 pounds of ice every 24 hours. Or well above 600 pounds of ice to last 8 hours.

Even if a well-insulated van can get by on half a ton (6000 BTU/hr), that's still 1000 pounds of ice per day, or over 300 pounds per 8 hours.

A few people may be able to make that work, but I don't see how I could even come close. Cost alone to buy that much ice is prohibitive.
 
#49 ·
I don't have a PM but can share 10 years of experience with a 5,000 BTU/hr A/C in an extended Ford window van.


My van has a total of 12 windows (including windshield if I counted right), with windshield and front door windows getting covered from outside with vinyl RV cover when parked. Covering the windshield helps tremendously, particularly if sun comes through windshield at any angle.


At night the air conditioner's capacity is not an issue at all. The A/C can cool the van cooler than we want; and even then cycles on and off.


During the day if the van is in the shade, the A/C cools it down enough to make it comfortable by removing humidity, and by dropping the temperature at least 10 degrees or more. Keep in mind that I have lots of windows and essentially no real insulation.


If afternoon sun comes through the windows, particularly on a warm day, then the A/C doesn't keep the van cool enough. It's just too much glass which allows solar heat to overwhelm the 5,000 BTU/hr A/C.


To prevent solar heat from coming through windows and essentially turning the van into a greenhouse, we made vinyl external curtains that hang over the windows to match the one we purchased for the windshield. This makes a lot of difference, and allows the A/C to cool the van enough to be tolerable in Florida summer during the middle of the day. We camped that way at Disney World in summer and left A/C on while we went to park. When we returned it wasn't freezing but was comfortable.


I think that a van with only one extra window (not counting front windows and windshield) that is insulated adequately should stay far cooler than mine. Even though a PM is taller than my extended E-350, the surface area of sheet-metal isn't all that much bigger. My original plan for an Extended High-Roof PM was to have four mid-size double-pane windows (2 per side) plus the rear two windows. By cutting window area almost in half, and by adding some real insulation on all sheet-metal surfaces before building the interior, I think a 5,000 BTU/hr A/C will be good enough for us. On occasions the temperature could get a little warmer than one likes, but I can deal with that as part of camping (a little roughing it is OK). On the other hand I don't plan to camp in Death Valley when it's 120 F outside.
 
#43 ·
#45 · (Edited)
Hi,
On an AC size for a 159 WB.

Did a quick run of the heat loos spreadsheet and came up with the numbers below -- you can download the spreadsheet and refine the numbers to what you actually have.
http://www.buildagreenrv.com/design...t-loss-calculator-for-camper-van-conversions/

For 90F outside and 70F inside, I get a heat gain of 1200 bTU/hr. To this you need to add about 300 BTU/hr per person in the van, and if you plan to cook in the van add some more for that. So, maybe that gives you about 2000 BTU/hr with two people in the van.

This is for these R values:
Walls and ceiling R11
Floor R10
Windows R3
0.5 air changes per hour

The walls and ceiling could be 1.5 inches of poyiso plus paneling and air layers to get R11. This is somewhat more than most people insulate to, but if you are going to be using AC, its definitely worth it.
Windows are R3 could be a single glazed window with a snug fitting Reflectex shade inside.

Important to have reflective shades on the windows for AC. A window in direct sun can gain 200+ BTU/hr per sqft of windows -- so, 10 sqft of unshaded unreflectorized window would about double your heat gain!

These also assume parking pretty much in the shade -- parking in the sun will increase the gain for the half of the van in the sun as the van skin temp will be high.

If it was 100F outside, then the heat gain wold be about 1800 + 600 = 2400 BTU/hr ish.

So, it seems like a 5000 BTU/hr AC would be fine -- it would have some excess capacity for the initial cool down of a hot van, and it would probably run about half the time or less once it got the initial cool down done.

I think that being able to use a smaller AC (like 5000 BTU/hr) is a winner all around. Smaller/cheaper AC, smaller/cheaper/quieter(?) generator, smaller/cheaper inverter, and able to handle flaky shore power better. Maybe even run a on a big house battery for limited time.
There is probably enough margin to cover situations where you can't park in the shade or some additional miscellaneous internal heat gains.


Another thought would be to close off the cab area with an insulated curtain. This would cut down the heat gain for the large cab windows (but you still want the reflective shades on them).
If it was a good insulating curtain, this might cut heat gain by as much as 25%.

Would be good to hear from someone who has actually tried a 5000 BTU/hr AC in a well insulated van.

600 watts of solar aimed at the sun (not flat on the roof) would run an efficient 5000 BTU/hr AC on a 50 to 75% duty cycle and still be able to charge the house battery some!

Gary
 
#47 · (Edited)
As a former owner of a Winnebago Rialta with a 8K BTU roof air, the unit had a hard time keeping the insides cool at a comfortable level. In 2015 at Zion NP the temps in the afternoon were about 105*F and even with reflective covers on the windows, the inside temp was about 80*F until late at night. It was like a cave inside, dark and slightly cool. Some Rialta owners installed 13.5K units to overcome the heat inside the unit as the smaller unit had to work real hard to remove the heat.
Even with my new Trend, the 13.5K A/C unit has a hard time cooling the insides in hot climates. This is with double pane side windows and wraparound windshield outside cover with reflective foil. A box fan helps to circulate the inside air to aid in cooling.
 

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#48 ·
Sonicsix had some discussions about an AC unit mounted under his couch/bed. Seems like 5000BTU mounted low didn't cut it, so he changed to a portable 10,000BTU unit.

More info here:

http://www.promasterforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=248401#post248401

I'm still thinking about mounting a 5000BTU unit in my back door window area... removable and affordable (once I take out the existing glass and replace it with an aluminum piece with a hole big enough for an AC unit!)

Ed
 
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