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post #21 of 44 Old 11-15-2016, 06:05 PM
RDinNHandAZ
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Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
I believe I am starting to feel a clutch issue. Immediately after it shifts the clutch doesn't completely disengage -- think pressing your foot lightly on the pedal of a modern manual trans car -- then after a second or two, it releases, and there is a subtle but noticeable increase in acceleration as this happens.
Oh my this changes everything.
And thanks KWB for patiently adding to this.

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post #22 of 44 Old 11-23-2016, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RDinNHandAZ View Post
Oh my this changes everything.
And thanks KWB for patiently adding to this.
Got another CEL this week, drove straight to the dealer while it was still on the dash. Unwilling to keep chasing my tail on this, while the dealer seems perfectly happy to do just that, I insisted that they not simply clear it, that they do something they haven't done before to attempt to diagnose the cause.

Got a call a few hours later, service writer said that STAR had advised them "to drive it until the CEL comes back on". I was too horrified to laugh at the ridiculousness of this: The CEL has never once come on while driving -- only after being parked, and usually after being parked on a steep grade overnight.

I'm sure I bummed out the tech that thought he was going for a cross country cruise, in my van, on the clock.

The service writer then said she wanted to keep it overnight, so that they'd be able to fire it up and check for a CEL immediately in the AM. I grudgingly agreed as we've been down this road many times, and it's never resulted in anything. The CEL's never come 2 days in a row.

To my surprise the service writer called this AM to report no CEL, but there was a fresh P2872 in the system. STAR advised them to drop the trans to the point that they can inspect the clutch. Said they'd need it for "about a week".

So I need to find a time that I can be without it.

Last edited by mikesee; 11-23-2016 at 12:42 PM.
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post #23 of 44 Old 11-23-2016, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
I am, admittedly, princess and the pea incarnate, and can detect (and want to fix) minute issues that others neither notice nor care about. I spent time explaining this issue -- how and when to feel it -- to the service writer last wednesday. When I picked the van up he gave the standard "unable to duplicate" response. I felt it again, immediately, when I drove off the lot.
My wife calls me "the princess and the pea" also. Service writer loves me. I too have a intermittent clutch " feather" but NO codes. It happens when under moderate to heavy acceleration but only a couple three times a week. I'm always running heavy. Im interested in how yours works out, my service advisor is very good at finding the small problems but this is very subtle and I know it won't show up. I waiting for it to be more pronounced or a code then I will use pea princess skills.

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post #24 of 44 Old 11-27-2016, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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Wanted to add one other symptom that my PM has been exhibiting all summer, but that I'd forgotten about until it did it again this morning.

We usually boondock: camp out on public land, no hookups, no neighbors, no noise. That often means following some derelict doubletrack through the woods or the cactus until we feel that we're far enough from the noise of a road to sleep soundly. We do this ~3 weekends a month.

Sometimes these tracks are steep, or at least briefly get steep. I'm emphatically not interested in rock crawling or worrying about dragging anything in the undercarriage on the ground -- so if the road gets rough like that I backtrack. But sometimes, like last night, the track is steep enough that 1st gear is required. We creep slowly up, taking our time, never spinning the tires, easing our way to a level, quiet spot with a view.

Once there we'll park, shut down the engine, and then proceed to make dinner and get ready for bed.

Why belabor this point?

Because it is *always* this scenario -- a steep creeper of a hill -- that has me waking the next morning to a CEL. Always, 100% of the time.

The symptom I referred to above happens when we're creeping back down that hill the next morning. I'll be in 1st gear, (shift lever in M mode, manually selected 1st gear) idling my way down, using the engine compression to do as much of the braking as possible, only touching the brake pedal when there's a big dip, or hole, or ledge (or similar) approaching that I don't want to hit with too much speed. And sometimes the clutch will simply 'let go' -- effectively going into neutral -- and the engine is no longer doing any of the braking, while the van rapidly accelerates. Feels like free falling when the clutch lets go. My foot is hovering over the brake pedal so we never gain appreciable speed before I catch it and slow it back down. But that's not the point -- the point is that the clutch is letting go to begin with.

Am I wrong to expect the clutch to 'hold' us as we creep down hills like this?

Taking the van in to have them drop the trans in the AM, so that they can inspect the clutch. Just want an idea of how much emphasis I should place on this 'symptom'.

Thanks for your opinions and collective wisdom.
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post #25 of 44 Old 11-27-2016, 09:26 PM
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I’d definitely mention it as it is a possible clutch issue. I find the AMT will do some shifting even in M in situations that the transmission holding a gear might push the engine to excessive speed and downshift when there is no possibility of accelerating form the RPMs Both happen when slow hill work is involved and if you don’t go into M then the computer seems to have no idea what gear is appropriate. It may be your van is shifting up to avoid engine over rev and you catch it with the brake before 2nd is engaged. Has the EVIC shown a 2nd gear? I use the brakes as I am a good judge of how much they can do without fading or overheating and brake pads are way cheaper than transmissions and engines. I never liked the engine working backwards but I am an old codger who is not coming into the new world of autos without kicking and screaming. BTW I too Coyote camp but unlike my 4X4 F150/popup camper I don’t plan to put desert pinstripes all over this one!

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post #26 of 44 Old 11-28-2016, 02:04 AM
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We do the same thing a lot. Definitely have to use M mode in these situations as D even with tow haul on won't know which gear to use and will stress the clutch. The only time I have felt the promaster "let go" on downhill is if it upshifts. I have experienced a similar thing to what you are describing with turbocharged gas vehicles though when the RPMs are high enough to get into the boost, it will feel like a little acceleration bump.
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post #27 of 44 Old 11-29-2016, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
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We do the same thing a lot. Definitely have to use M mode in these situations as D even with tow haul on won't know which gear to use and will stress the clutch. The only time I have felt the promaster "let go" on downhill is if it upshifts. I have experienced a similar thing to what you are describing with turbocharged gas vehicles though when the RPMs are high enough to get into the boost, it will feel like a little acceleration bump.

Mine doesn't make it to "high" revs when I do this -- I'd guess ~1200 or so, max. Walking speed, no more. It's not the rev's that determine when it "lets go", it's the pitch. Beyond a certain grade the clutch can't hold the van and just defaults to neutral.
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post #28 of 44 Old 11-29-2016, 08:02 PM
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Mike,
Definitely discuss this and try to find out if it is “normal” to let go" into neutral when the torque is high and the gear is low. I can’t see how we can guess and with your other symptoms it may be some odd combination. I have not had the "let go" occur so I guess I haven’t pushed as far as you have but I am sure to sometime as your scenario is so familiar to us. Others have been on steep and slow roads and no one is chiming in here so it may be you are it. The CEL after the climb is probably a clue but I am at a loss to understand what might be going on. Sorry to not be more help.

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post #29 of 44 Old 11-30-2016, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RDinNHandAZ View Post
Mike,
Definitely discuss this and try to find out if it is “normal” to let go" into neutral when the torque is high and the gear is low. I can’t see how we can guess and with your other symptoms it may be some odd combination. I have not had the "let go" occur so I guess I haven’t pushed as far as you have but I am sure to sometime as your scenario is so familiar to us. Others have been on steep and slow roads and no one is chiming in here so it may be you are it. The CEL after the climb is probably a clue but I am at a loss to understand what might be going on. Sorry to not be more help.

Got my van back today.

When they tested the system they learned that the 'input speed sensor has speed at start up, and should not, recommend inspect clutch and release bearing.'

In the notes where the work was done, they wrote, "removed trans inspect clutch all ok replaced slave cyl and test drive shifts good at this time'.

Also: "installed actuator: hydraulic clutch r" and "installed fluid: brake" and "front wheel alignment, adjusted caster camber and toe".


It was clear from the other notes that the tech didn't understand the "letting go" symptom I described, as his (her?) solution was to tell me (in writing) that I have to manually shift down into first if I want it to stay in first, and that if I creep down hills in D then it's going to shift. Yeah, duh.

Will report back (or, hopefully, not) if I get another CEL and same code.
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post #30 of 44 Old 12-05-2016, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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Made it two days before the next CEL. In that time I installed a Blue Driver sensor in the OBD port and the accompanying app on my phone, so that I didn't need the dealer to tell me that P2872 was back.

Lasted 3 starts and then went away. A day later it was back. Lasted 2 starts and then went away. "Feathering" of shifts has returned. Haven't been out on anything steep to know if it still 'lets go' when creeping downhill.

Any ideas on chasing this down appreciated/considered. Dealer and STAR are currently without ideas.
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