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Help me sway the she-boss....solar panel

11K views 98 replies 14 participants last post by  RDinNHandAZ 
#1 ·
I've actually gotten the boss, the she-boss/better-half looking at adding solar while we're doing the initial build.
She's a bottom dollar type/ex-banker and wants to know the bottom line to add solar capability to what we're already doing.
This means a panel, the racks, a solar charge controller, and connectors.

So on a 138" wb PM using two Maxxairs, front in the logical spot, rear as far back as possible I have to figure the largest panel possible right?
So best guess we can fit a 72" 300 watt panel......that I can get a good guestimate on price.
Solar charge controller, MPPT, also easily priced.
Wire and connectors won't be an issue compared to the cost of the panel and controller.

Now the nitty-gritty, the racks. I can give her a good estimate on the above but have not a clue on the racks to price.
I'd appreciate any help on this and I just might end up with a PM initially with a photon collector on top.
Robert
 
#33 · (Edited)
I like everything I eat to be sterile!

But getting back to business, my OEM starting battery is flooded and my house batteries are AGM's. Having said that, I wouldn't think twice about charging them from the alternator but I'm obligated to say "It ain't recommended" .

Now, back to regularly scheduled programming.
 
#34 ·
I'm taking it all in as best as I can.
You all might remember way back when your were learning several new languages at once and trying to
quickly become compliant for communication/exchange. I'm not there yet...may never be!

And I'm glad this thread is moving beyond the original stated purpose. That said the she-boss was an easy sell on solar integration.
She's even given a tentative nod of approval for the gasoline burning Webasto for a fall install.
Showing her her the price of bags of ice for a year was also an easy sell for the ARB 50 quart frig.

MORE importantly we have found not only a window installer but a whole on upscale RV conversion expert who does the high dollar
conversions for a living and his shop/garage is walking distance from where Poof plies her trade. So the window/fan AND air conditioner
install will be lickety split !!
The air conditoner sell to her post discussions on two vent fans sold on a post made by a member here who postulated that southerners (us)
appear stupid only because we are avoiding stroke by avoiding heat exhaustion because of the humidity we deal with (me paraphrasing his
observation on life in the south) east of the Mississippi....and the realization that a lot of our trips will be in the east.

So is this a good place to start puzzling the major electrical plan? I best do some googling on this site first or KOV will get on me! I will say
that my mind keeps conjuring a Battery Doctor between my alternator and the van and house batteries ;)
 
#35 ·
#36 ·
Unreal timing! I was just at Gary's site (INVALUABLE) with Poof and I going over the electrical diagrams=brilliant/simple easy enough for a cave-man/hillibilly such as myself to get a big picture.

Say I want a big honking AGM house batter---not 2 x 6 volt, why do that? 1 big 12 volt AGM, suggestions? I'm guessing it's going to weigh 120 pounds!

Speaking of Gary's site; I'd still like to borrow his tractor for my roof work.
 
#37 ·
2X6 is 12Volt, sold in a way that is affordable and you can pick up. Part of their affordability is they (and 8volt oddly) are used in golf carts so they are sold everywhere, are a tested product, and made in quantities that have tremendous economies of scale in manufacture, supply and sales. Yes there are honking big 12 volters too. What do you see as their advantage?
 
#40 ·
#42 ·
More charge for the $ also. Heavier construction, thicker plates, etc, etc.the only problem is if you go 6v you really need 4 not 2 and that gets expensive and heavy. I had 4/6's (flooded0 in my Sprinter and they worked great but now I just use 2/12's AGM's in my Promaster and they work just as well. No matter what you do you really need a minimum of two of them if you are going to run anything off an inverter for any length of time.
 
#48 ·
KOV I wonder about that. Don’t you have 2- 120 amp hour 12 volt batteries, in parallel for 12V-240 amp hour? I have 2- 220 amp hour 6 volt batteries connected in series to get 12 volt 220 amps. I’m thinking we have the same total battery power.
 
#43 ·
I'm thinking no one pointed out 'possible' disadvantages of one large panel... though I'm with you on it's easy to put one & done...

I'm not selling anything just keeping future forum readers better informed...

Check warranty exclusion statements for something like this "Use of products on mobile units such as vehicles or water vessels" ... I looked and the Eclipse panel I linked earlier also has that general exclusion though a smaller panel is inherently tougher and also harder to detect a vibration-caused failure warranty claim. Yes, it's a rare event but it does happen. Buying a panel kit from someone like AMSolar.com or another RV solar retailer might be money saved down the road. This used to be a problem when solar was five or six dollars a watt as they are nearly disposable now comparatively not so much.

Shipping... Someone has to pay to move this oversize & fragile item - this is where buying in bulk reduces costs... getting a 300w panel for $200 is good, paying $200 or more for freight shipping is bad. Imagine having to return the item if it is defective though most large PV suppliers will waive return of panels if you remove & send them the ID plate. Buying locally the retailer will still stick buyer with shipping though hopefully less than single panel rate.

Have you looked at partial shading reducing performance, sometimes severely? This is the main reason I want gangs of 100w panels filling my roof.

If a large wattage panel has 72 cells and produces a 36V optimum power point, each cell is giving 1/2 volt to the string thus it has two parallel strings of 36 cells internally, like having two 150W panels under one piece of glass. Shadows from a leaf, seagull poop, a tree branch or electric wire overhead, morning dew turning dust to mud will reduce the output but it's not by 1/2 a volt or 1/36th of the current - it drops current output by 30, 50% or more. Let that shadow cover most of one or more cells on BOTH strings and it's down to 10, 20, 30% output. This is an 'eggs all in one basket' conundrum, I'm not saying buying ten 30w panels and only losing 10% if one panel is shaded is ideal but that is the general point, getting more smaller panels in parallel usually lessens the liability of small shading events.

Home Depot sells (free shipping) "Grape Solar 160w" panels (58"x26", 26.4lbs) so with their add-on little rinky-dink mounting feet it is $1.51 per watt, or $485 for 320w. To battle the shading thing the panels should be wired in parallel, ought to be doable with the wire supplied with the panel, though that's not the best voltage for a fancy MPPT charger. Also, their website panel application list calls out Boat, Cabin, RV, Shed, Vehicle so no dodging warranty claims on an RV mounted PV panel.

No Sir, not trying to start nuffin, just saying one large panel may be a liability technically, or hail storms, road hazards, low-hanging tree limbs, teenage vandals, blah blah..
 
#44 ·
One panel or two. I think with our small roof size, 136" wb, our window and aircon installer said we could only get one panel up there and he said either 100watt or 160watt.....this after saying the aircon really needs to go in the middle of the roof. He is also the gentleman that does full on rv conversions that are big big bucks but he just finished a Promaster and is working on his own personal Promaster===all good for us!

So, would you even fool with solar if you can only have one 160 watt panel? In my uneducated mind it is still to be a valuable contribution to the battery bank eh? When that time comes we'll tell him to largest watted panel he can.

Now back to the batteries.
Can someone give me a link to the golf cart batteries everyone loves? I accept that 2 x 6 is the way to go since the majority here says so. I do still want AGM. I want to avoid maintenance and venting issues.
 
#53 ·
Hi,
Trojan makes the 6 volt golf cart battery in flooded and AGM:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/markets/ev/6v/
The Trojans are very popular with the golf cart crowd, so you should be able to find them locally.

The Trojans cost more than other golf cart batteries, but a lot of people think that they get enough extra life out of them to be worth the extra cost. The Trojans weigh more, have thicker plates, ...
So, if you are looking to minimize your labor over time, they might be a good way to go as you probably won't have to replace as often over time as much.

On the other hand, if you destroy the batteries early in their life through some sort of mischarging or over discharging, which is very common, you have lost more money with the Trojans.

Being a cheap skate, I opted for the Costco golf cart flooded batteries at $85 each, but I don't think they make an AGM version of it.

There is a lot of info out there on Trojan vs the Walmart and Costco batteries -- google will bring up many discussions and very strong opinions on both sides.

I realize you have decided on AGM, and this is probably a good way to go, but I have the say that the flooded batteries in addition to having more cycle life, the maintenance is next to nothing. Twice a year you add a little distilled water and that's it -- 5 minutes. These 6 months visits to your battery also give you a chance to look at the terminals for corrosion, tightness etc., which can save some trouble out on the road.

Gary
 
#45 ·
Get the panels in 100 watt increments and have him make them fit. I think they are about 47 inches long by 21 wide so in front of or behind the aircon? He can adjust that forward or back to make it work. 160 is a bit small, 200 alright, 300 great! It should not be a problem to get two on there maybe three. Amazon is a good source as you have a month to return if not working on delivery, free return and the warrantee is by the manufacturer anyway. I bought Renogy, a good brand.

Golf Cart Batteries: GC2 is the size. Trogon 105’s are the premium price, about $260/battery
Sam’s Club has them seasonally in our area made by West Penn @ about $170/battery
http://www.samsclub.com/sams/duracell-agm-golf-car-battery-group-size-gc2agm/prod3870119.ip
 
#46 ·
New guy here! I'm deep in the mental planning stages of my van and really appreciate all the knowledge here. I'm really curious what loads you are all running off your solar system. LED house lights, a fan, and charging a phone seem to be easily handled with a single 100W panel. But going up from there gets interesting. I'm trying to look at the cost/benefit of going without propane and using a Webasto parking heater and an induction cook top. How big of solar/electrical system would I need, and how much more expensive would that system be than just adding propane? That's at least what's going on in my head.

So, I'm curious to what you guys are running on electrical and what choices you made.
 
#47 ·
I went through the steep solar learning curve several years ago. You may find what I did helpful –or not. Still waiting for my diesel PM so you’ll have to suffer through my Ford Ranger installation.

As a hobby I travel around the US teaching antique clock repair for the NAWCC. Before I ordered my Promaster I traveled in a Ford Ranger with low profile bed shell. Rather cramped (hence move to van) but it worked. I was all electric with a Dometic CFX35 quart fridge and a 1350 watt induction hot plate. I traveled all over the US for 4 years with this setup and it worked wonderfully. I originally was all solar but one time I ran into a 10 day stretch of solid rain when traveling from Oklahoma to Pennsylvania and down to Atlanta which prompted a tie to the vehicle charging system as a backup. Here’s the setup I used:

I started with and LG 300 watt 72 cell panel on the top of the pickup camper shell mounted to Yakima factory installed roof rails on the camper shell, dropping directly into Yakima mounting pads with custom machined adapters. This allowed me to remove the panel with ease. Wiring used standard MC4 solar connectors and the wiring dropped down from the roof between the truck cab and the camper shell and entered through factory tie-down holes in the side of the truck bed (no holes drilled in the bed or the camper shell). When panel was disconnected the extra cable stored under the pickup bed.

Solar controller was a Rogue 3048 MPPT 30 Amp controller which is the perfect size for 300 watts of solar panels. LOVED this controller. Super versatile and will even properly charge Lithium Ion batteries. I’m going with 600 watts of solar on the PM so had to change to a Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 60 Amp controller.

Battery was a Lifeline 4D 200 Amp-hr AGM that mounted under my sleeping platform at the front of the truck bed next to the electronics. I wanted an 8D 250 Amp-hr battery but it was just too big to fit under the sleeping platform and space is tight. 4D and 8D batteries are HEAVY. I think my 4D tipped the scale at 156 lbs. RD is correct that these are not inexpensive. I think I paid $575 for my 4D. I could easily have purchased 4-6volt flooded golf cart batteries for this amount with significant pocket change left over but I needed AGM because I needed to mount it on its side to make it fit the space and it didn’t require venting. And as MM observed, with one battery I simplify some of the rats nest of cabling. In the PM I’m upgrading the battery bank to 540 Amp-hrs of LifeP04. Not cheap but lots of advantages based on the way I use them.

My battery monitor was, and will remain, the Bogart Engineering TM-2030. Wonderful device and you can call for help and get amazing customer service.

I used a Cotek 1500 watt pure sinewave inverter. This same inverter is rebranded by Go-Power, Samlex, and several others. If you open up the rebrands, all the parts are marked Cotek, so I just decided to stick with the original source and cut out the middle man. Great little inverter. I will probably keep this jewel in the PM but if I ever decide to upgrade will go with a Magnum.
I had a problem with running out of power on the extended trip where it rained 10 days straight. This posed a conundrum. As has been pointed out you can’t mix battery types because the charging requirements are different. That goes doubly now that I’m moving to Lithium Ion. I solved the problem by using a Sterling BB-1230 Battery to Battery charger. This is a very different animal from a battery “isolater”. The B to B charger is connected between your vehicle starting battery and your house battery. It is controlled by your ignition switch but also monitors your starting battery to assure that it gets at least 90% recharged before it cuts in and starts charging the house battery. It then starts charging the house battery exactly the same as a shore power charger would. It has 4 configurable charging stages (bulk, absorb, float, equalize) and it will fully control the charging process completely independent from your vehicle’s starting battery. Expensive in the $250 to $300 range for a 30 Amp charger but for me it was worth it as it makes everything “set and forget”.
No switches to remember to turn on/off. It plays nice with the solar controller too.

There are two photos attached. One is the panel mounted to the camper shell. You can zoom in and see the custom aluminum mounting clips that drop into the Yakima mounting pads. Makes a nice clean installation.

The second shows the electronics mounted up front on the truck bed wall. To the right is the Rogue charger. Under the charger are the disconnect switches for the solar panels into the controller and the output of the controller to the battery. This allows isolating the controller for maintenance.

To the left of the controller is the Bogart Engineering TM2030. You can’t see it, but directly behind the TM2030 is a BlueSea 6 position fuse panel. Under the TM2030 are 12v outlets and USB charging ports (the black things with the white slash marks). Under the outlets is the red battery load disconnect switch which disconnects everything from the battery. Next up is the Coteck inverter. If you look low and to the left of the inverter you can see the 300 Amp ANL system fuse. The current shunt used by the TM2030 is to the left of the fuse under the sleeping platform. You can just see the edge of it peeking out from under the bed.

Hope you find this useful,

Lex
 

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#49 · (Edited)
Lex that is a lot of effort and information. Thank you very much.
The Sterling BB1230 looks like a smart option.
I was thinking putting a Battery Doctor between the alternator and the batteries.
Sterling seems a much smarter tool.
Honestly my head is still spinning with the myriad of choices.

If I may a couple of questions.
The ubiquitous and loved 'golf cart' battery in 6V...it does exist in AGM format?
I am lazy and want the low/no maintenance approach. I can see (and at my age I'm
glad so many pointed out) that 2 x 6 weight wise=me moving them is better than 1 large
honking battery.

On batteries, what do you (and anyone else) think of these:
http://www.atbatt.com/us-battery-usagm2000-6v-agm-deep-cycle-battery.asp

I did google and found lithium golf cart batteries but that's out of my league!!
 
#50 ·
Battery weight and warranty would likely be important as in the most weight and longest warranty.

When looking at similar rated items, higher weight is more lead waiting to do your bidding. The battery you linked has a one year warranty. Other makes/vendors are up to five years free replacement, some with 3yr are even 10% cheaper, some with 5yr in a slightly higher price range, the add shipping so choose wisely.

Local availability is a big plus except sitting unused on their rack for months w/o maintenance is not good, AGM and their low self-discharge helps that, but look for the freshest born-on date, Man'f usually have a month/date sticker on the battery itself.

When 'Following the Money', the 'Lifeline' brand is pricey but has (hungry) service centers all over the country looking for warranty work, a lot of satisfied customers.
 
#55 ·
Yes, they certainly make AGM golf cart batteries as others have pointed out. They run anywhere from double to four times the cost of flooded cells depending on the amount of lead (more is better) and the premium paid for the brand name/warranty. Nothing is free and longer warranted batteries cost more.

Just as important as the battery you choose, (and maybe more so), are the charge settings on your chargers and controllers. The cheapest battery maintained with proper charger settings will perform better and last longer than the the most expensive battery with improper settings. Also, leaving a battery (or your coach) in storage without a regular maintenance charge on the batteries will destroy a flooded battery in 6 months and an AGM in a year or so. Lead acid batteries have a relatively high self discharge rate (though AGM is about 1/5th flooded) and will sulfate rather quickly. Make sure your chargers/controllers are set up to meet the battery manufacturers specs and batteries are regularly brought up to 100% full charge.

If you are using 6 volt batteries, make sure that your jumper wire tying your batteries together is of sufficient size. Even professional installers skimp in this area because of the high cost of copper wire. Larger is always better. If you are going to use a large inverter (1500 watts or larger), all wiring between batteries and to the inverter should be as large as you're willing to pay for. 4-0 (0000) is the largest practical size, but if your inverter is within a couple of feet of the battery then you can probably get away with 1-0 or maybe even as small as #2 . Again, larger is always better and it is a one-time cost.

Many people install large battery banks and then are very disappointed because the performance isn't as expected. Most of the time you can trace the problem back to one of 3 causes:

1- Shaded solar panel. As was pointed out in a previous post, shading one cell, or having a line of shadow from a pole across a panel can drop its output by 50% or more. Shade from a vent or air conditioner along the edge of a panel will do the same thing. I've seen a solar installation on an RV with a 300 watt panel and only putting out 50 watts due to a 2" wide x 18" long shaded area along the edge of the panel from an air conditioner. Sometimes the problem can be mitigated by parking your rig with proper orientation to the sun so that shading doesn't occur.

2- Improper charger settings. Life of the batteries suffers, and/or, battery capacity is severely impacted. I've seen properly charged golf cart batteries from Sam's last 7+ years, and I've seen Trojan T105's only last 2 seasons. The Sam's were properly charged and kept on maintenance charge year round where the T105's were charged from the vehicle alternator through a battery isolator and then left 6 months at a time with no charge with the RV in storage.

3- To small wire size - especially where the batteries tie together, and going to high current devices like inverters. The small wires use up some of the voltage going to the equipment so the equipment thinks the battery is low and shuts itself off. The batteries might actually be 13 volts but the inverter only sees 11.7 volts when it is pulling high current through the small wires feeding it and so it shuts itself down. I've seen this many times. Plenty of battery power, but the inverter couldn't use it properly.

I guess my point is, that a successful house power system isn't just the batteries. Good performance is dependent on the entire system and solar panel size and placement, battery size and type, charger settings, and wire size are all equally important.

I spent 42 years as an electronic and telecommunications technician installing and maintaining battery power systems, two-way radio systems, microwave systems, telephone switching systems, fiberoptic systems, and the like. Many of the batteries I worked on took up the space of an average living room. The fuse and power distribution panels were 19" wide and 6 feet tall. What's interesting is that their requirements are exactly the same as the smaller batteries we use in our RV's and camper conversions.

Lex
 
#56 ·
seapro - It is a common misconception that AGM batteries can't be, or don't need to be equalized. This was initially one of the selling points for AGM batteries when they first came out, but it has since been found that AGM batteries benefit from an occasional equalization charge. True, they don't need it quite as often as flooded batteries, but equalization can increase performance and significantly extend the life of AGM batteries. Here's a link to LifeLine's take on the subject:

http://lifelinebatteries.com/2015/10/can-i-equalize-agm-batteries/

Lex
 
#57 ·
Medicineman, you are in Bristol? Knoxville here. I usually only hit Bristol when we have events at Bristol Motor Speedway. I'm curious who you are having help with your build. I plan to do most of all my work since I learned years ago I could screw my car repair up cheaper than paying someone else to do it. I also have a better chance at getting it right. :D If you don't feel comfortable saying in public, PM me. I would like to know who all in the area can do work on a class B conversion.

After seeing the top of the line AGM costly battery for an effective 100 Amp hour is $500 ish just for battery, at 50% usable for 200AmpHour batterys.
The GPS LiFMP of equivalent use is $744 at Elite Power Solutions. http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php?cPath=25&osCsid=c7e6127cfa77b086e1931836ea8c51f8 2 of the 60AmpHour = 2 of the 60AMpHr leads to 96 Amp hour at 80% discharge. Yes Lithium costs more but when you factor in the medical costs of no hernia or muscle strain handling them and with proper BMS they start getting cost effective.

for a complete system the distributor link leads to.. http://www.lithiumrvbattery.com/Lithium_RV_Battery/GBS_100AH_Cells.html They list systems on the 100AmpHr multiplication, effectively on the 80AmpHr multiplication. so 80, 160, 240, AmpHr usable. The prices there are complete drop in, you wire it together systems.


I am being devils advocate here. I do believe in lighter, faster, stronger. I will never again use a liquid acid battery. Had a liquid battery shoot acid onto my leg and crotch on a motorcyle. If it wasn't for ATGATT to keep the acid from hitting my skin, I hate to think the consequence. :eek:
 
#77 ·
Ted sorry for the late reply.
No secrets with me. I work in Bristol and live in Johnson City and/or Roan Mountain depending on weather and mood :)
The outfitter of the van is in Asheville,NC where the she-boss works part time. I cannot remember the name of his company :(
I'll ask Poof since she walks right by it three days a week and post it for you.
Currently in his garage is a Promaster in progress and I think he just finished one. Very very posh work.
 
#62 ·
I just read that in some place we can boondock at Sams Club, so a membership for that and batteries=win win :)

Now tell me this please. Does the battery number have to be equal.....anyone ever use 3 batteries?
or do we have to have 4 ??? Two is almost not enough, four would be too much :(
 
#59 ·
But.. but.. I'm a weight weenie... Lol

I do have AGM in most all the cars and the motorcycles. Replaced as the wet cells go bad. I was trying to unscrupulously use this thread as a discussion on the AGM vs Lithium. If a CPA can be convinced to use lithium batteries, would work for me.0:)
 
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