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Clutch bleed?

27K views 63 replies 9 participants last post by  RDinNHandAZ 
#1 ·
Woke up to a CEL on Friday. Dropped it at dealer and they found a code that directed them to bleed the clutch master cylinder. I had no time that day and they said it could be safely driven without the bleed, so they cleared the code and sent me on my way.

It's at the dealer now, ostensibly being bled.

Just curious if this has happened to anyone else yet, and if it might be indicative of a larger problem?
 
#36 ·
And the beat goes on. Dropped it at the dealer yesterday, and because the code had already been 'stored' (aka was no longer 'active') they could pull zero data from the system. Nothing.

They want to keep it for "awhile" to be able to cold start it on a ramp (to simulate where it is parked in my steep driveway every AM) and pull data every morning until they can duplicate.

Leaving for ~10 days of boondocking in AZ tomorrow, will consider letting them do that when we get back.
 
#37 ·
So the clutch feathering is a real symptom related to the P2872! Progress. I’m gong way out on a limb here with my saw in hand.
Could it be air entering the master cylinder or lines going down to the slave cylinder? It would explain why bleeding works in the short run but not for ever. The air would enter as the clutch is disengaged (let out). Actuating the clutch by shifting from N to D several times slowly with a bright light on the fluid reservoir might show bubbles. This is what happens when you have low fluid too. E-brake on so no one gets hurt.
Could it be an internal leak in the master cylinder? If you have the clutch pushed in (as at a stop sign in gear) the computer will eventually ask you to shift into neutral. You might try that for as long as you can stand it before boredom sets in (4-5 minutes in my case) and see if the clutch begins to engage the selected gear, this is a standard test of the master cylinder if you have a clutch pedal to push. It would let a leaking master cylinder engage early, that is before the pedal is all the way out. Next couple of pushes and the leaking master cylinder recovers until fluid leaks past its cylinder under pressure again. The leak is internal so no fluid is lost. If negative it might induce the CEL as the computer will see the slave cylinder as partially engaged, so if negative drive a short distance and see it the CEL shows up.
 
#38 ·
Dealer had it all week. Star told them to hardwire the speed sensor and then to keep it for several days so that they could check on startup every morning, with diagnostics already hooked up.

They've also been taking it for a mid-day drive w/diagnostics hooked up.

Got the call on Friday PM that I could pick it up "if I wanted", but they'd prefer to keep it a little longer to verify that this had indeed solved it.

Skipped over there just before closing. We'd gotten a foot+ of snow the night before and morning of, and their parking lot was a mess. So as I drove out I noticed but wasn't super concerned by the fact that the front tires were spinning more than I could ever remember, and the van just felt weird. Chalked it up to the fact that my loaner was a Hemi pickup and I'd been rather aggressive with the gas pedal all week.

But then I got onto a main road with dry pavement, and the dash lit up with "service hill holder", "service ESC", "service ABS" more or less at the same time. That, and the van wouldn't shift into second gear -- just wound itself up to ~3800rpm's in first.

Made three quick rights and parked it where I'd just picked it up moments earlier.

While standing waiting to talk to my service advisor it occurred to me that the big snow + cold snap (it was +15*f at that moment) had probably earned me a frozen e-brake. All the symptoms matched up.

So I left it with them for the night, and they said they'd park it inside and call when it was ready in the AM.

Got a call from the service manager this morning, telling me that "the brakes worked fine" (he had clearly not understood the service advisor's notes) but the CEL was back on. And since he didn't have anyone on staff to look at that on a Saturday, they'd call me on Monday when it was ready.

I am beyond frustrated at this point. As politely as I could I demanded an extended warranty this week, and was told more or less immediately that yes, indeed, I should have and would be given that.

My continued hope is that a year from now this will be a distant memory, and this van will become the reliable vehicle that I need it to be. 8 months now I've had that hope.
 
#39 ·
Begin to discuss a BUY BACK? I hate to say it but life with this van must have become an ordeal. Whatever is causing this is about as unusual as anything we have seen and FCA may be doing its best to find and fix it, but you are being denied your property’s use. A few of us have seen that P2872 code but we are not suffering the symptoms, or other codes. We feel for you, you seem to have their attention, hope for a breakthrough.
 
#40 ·
If I didn't have 3+ months of evening and weekend conversion work into it already, it would probably already be gone.

If I didn't know that I was going to lose ~$1500 worth of sound deadening, insulation, sunroof, passenger side window, etc...

I don't need it much over the next few months, thus the pushing of Star and the hope that they find the root problem. At some point I will have no choice but to see the writing on the wall and punt, if I want to have a van done in time for this coming summer travel season.
 
#41 ·
Maybe be happy you didn't spray foam the insulation in, IIRC a forum member had to remove generously applied forever-foam before they would allow the buy-back. Okay, fine, not sunshine and roses but it is true...
 
#42 ·
Got it back yesterday. Attached pic shows the detail on what they did -- essentially hardwiring the speed sensor.

Drove off the lot, merged into traffic, and as I got up to speed felt a 'thumpthumpthump' that increased as I accelerated. Parked it, went and looked at all 4 tires, checking for a flat spot, but couldn't see one. Took it back to dealer, drove the service advisor down the street and she said "It feels like a flat spot on one of the tires". Pulled over and she got out to inspect. I crept forward as she looked until she said "Stop". There was a flat spot -- caused when the parking brake froze -- and the right rear tire was hosed.

They replaced the tire this morning. I drove home without incident. Now I wait for the other shoe to drop, or not. Hoping that hardwiring that sensor makes the difference. Will check back in here if it doesn't.
 

Attachments

#43 ·
Went up into the mountains to play on Sat. Driving down a few hours later I got a "Service Transmission" on the EVIC. Codes were the same as last time -- ATTCP and P0571.

Red exclamation point kept flashing on the dash the whole drive down the hill, but then went out somewhere on the (very flat) Interstate on the way home.

Drove back up today (Sunday) to play in the snow again, and it happened again -- all of it, exactly the same.

On the Interstate on our way home the cruise control would not function.
 
#44 ·
Turns out P0571 (covers brake switch and cruise control) was the only thing that the dealer could find and/or duplicate a problem with. From what they told me, as well as what I've been able to glean from online sources and friends that wrench professionally, when the brake switch malfunctions it's as if you're driving two-footed. And potentially very heavy on the brake foot.

I don't drive two footed ever, so when the dealer kept asking if I did I was confused. At one point they explained that they see Chargers come in with this code somewhat frequently, because macho dudes are doing brake torques at stoplights before lighting 'em up. Clearly not something that's happening with the PM, but that's how it was presenting to the techs.

Thus my trans had been hot (I'm not sure if they used the word overheating or if I appended it after the conversation) as we came down the hill last weekend, not through any fault of driver but because this switch was malfunctioning. What tipped them off was when I said the cruise control wouldn't work, apparently.

Anyhow, they've since checked/repaired/replaced the switch and (according to the receipt) some associated wiring.

When I drove it off the dealer lot this AM I was tuned in (as always) to the shift feather that has been happening for months now. And it seems to be gone. I only got a few miles of running errands in, but never once detected the feather in that time. Thus maybe (so the dealer hopes) the brake switch has ben the culprit all along?

I'm hoping so too, but might just be past the point where my faith can be entirely restored in this particular van.

Heading out for a ~1000 mile trip on Monday morning. With fingers crossed, as usual.
 
#45 ·
Never got to head out on that 1000 mile trip, as I got a "Service Transmission" and P0571 on the EVIC a few hours before leaving.

Thus I left for a roadtrip without my roadtrip vehicle. Such a bummer.

2 weeks later I come back to the dealer and they've put ~1000 miles on my van, attempting to "duplicate my concern". They were able to do it once out of 5 tries, using the same route it has happened to me on 3 times out of 3. They drove the same speed, same gear, same direction, etc... But even with all of their OBD equipment hooked up, they weren't able to pull a code or any info that'd give them an idea of where to go from there.

The next step is that Chrysler Engineering apparently has some higher $ diagnostic equipment that the dealer is referring to as a data logger. Apparently they can hook this stuff up, go for a drive, and it both records much more data than the dealer can gather, as well as sends it in real time back to Detroit for analysis and conjecture.

Service manager had never heard of this unit in 12 years with Chrysler. Says there are only 2 or 3 of these units in the country. Also says it will take "a few weeks" to get one from Detroit to Colorado, whence a regional rep will deliver it to the dealer, install it himself, then take my van for a drive.

The only possible upshot to all of this is that the service manager and engineers all agree that the problem is 90% likely to be software related, as there is no change in performance or driveability whether the codes have set or not. They think I simply need a software update, but it's an as-yet non-existent update because they know neither what's causing it nor how to address the phantom cause.

So I have my van back, with nothing solved, and an indeterminate time until a solution will even be suggested, much less implemented.

If diesels were currently available I think I'd have little interest in continuing with this one -- it'd be buyback time.

Alas they are not, and I'm not interested in a rear wheel drive van, nor a gas PM.

I have a case started with FCA Customer Care and am told I'll be getting a MaxCare extended warranty. I will also be pushing them for oil changes, some small items like a spare key fob and touch up paint, as well as for them to make at least one payment given that I had my van for 4 days in January.

Will update, hopefully with good news, once the data logger chapter begins.
 
#46 ·
I understand your pain as a concerned fellow diesel owner can. The fact this is not an engine or emissions issue it seems it should be an easy fix. ATM transmissions will become common and they are not inherently complex. This engine-transmission is so good FCA has solved the initial issues. The transmission is used in Europe in the Ducato. BTW sales for Promasters is gaining on Ford and Sprinter.
 
#47 · (Edited)
Looking forward to more of your story, mikesee. I have started feeling some intermittent "clutch feathering" on my 2014 as well. It may have always been there and I just started paying attention after reading about your problem!

I'm not really sure its a clutch problem... it feels like a delay in throttle response after shifting, like turbo lag or something. After the shift, I am still on the gas, but the RPMs stay put for maybe .5-1 second and then the power kicks in again and I see the RPMs rise and can feel the van pull. If it was clutch, I would expect that the RPMs would rise before the power. It definitely seems like a computer issue to me... I don't feel it at all some days, other days I feel it with every shift. No difference with tow haul on or manual shifting. I never feel any problems on downshifts. No clutch smell or any other overt indication of a physical clutch problem.

Edit - I may try running with the obd2 monitor and obd fusion to watch the boost as I shift.. maybe that will show something interesting.
 
#48 ·
Feathering has been inconsistent for me. Some days very noticeable. Other times I'll go hundreds of miles without noticing.

Worth mentioning is that the original indicator of a problem here -- the P2872 code for "Clutch A stuck engaged" -- was thought to have been solved when Star told dealer to hardwire the speed sensor, and the dealer did just that. Lasted over a month with no recurrences. Then I drove down to Cameron, AZ late last week to run a river. Got a CEL and P2872 -- despite the hardwired sensor -- upon startup to drive back home.
 
#49 ·
Progress!

Dealer found an empathetic ear within Chrysler engineering in Detroit, whom looked into the details of this case and just couldn't make heads or tails of it. And instead of passing the buck or ignoring things, decided to act.

Long story short, as of today I have a brand spankin' new transmission in my PM, and the old one has been palletted and is heading back to the assembly plant in Mexico for inspection/blueprinting.

New trans felt smoother in the first mile than the old one did most of it's 19,900 miles. Hoping this solves it, will check back in here when there's something more to report.
 
#51 ·
Any update? I assume no news is good news :). I am still getting the intermittent "feathering" with upshifts into 2-4, never feel it on shifts into 5 and 6. Some days it isn't there at all.. still happens if I manually shift and build RPMs to 3k+ before shifting.

I don't really want to take it to the dealer with just these symptoms, but don't want to get stranded somewhere either!
 
#50 ·
seems to me they are finally getting onboard with transmission replacements. the tcm, the trans, and the wire harness usually get replaced as a set. it just depends on how cheap the person is authorizing the repair. some do one item at a time as the van keeps coming back, other do all 3 to try solve problem. ive had my van back about a month now, barely put 10k miles on the new trans. it has been working fine this time.

ps i was looking on cargurus at diesel 3500 extendeds for sale, i found 2 that were buybacks repaired and for sale. both had trans issues as why buyback.
 
#53 ·
It’s P2872. If they ever find out what causes that code publish it here. I have thought long and hard about this and suspect that the fault occurs when the clutch is partially released but the van does not move. It gets displayed the next start up. Think about your driving at times this has happened. Are the circumstances ones that might be explained by this idea? I had it at the next start up after I tried to leave a parking space but had the E-brake on. I have never had any symptom or issues with the clutch. I reset it once I saw what it was. I actually don’t think the code is important UNLESS there are other symptoms as several here have reported it and are otherwise fine. If you think I’m nutz its ok to tell me.
 
#54 ·
I don't think you're nuts, but i'm not sure you're spot-on either.

As mentioned many times previously (mostly in this thread IIRC) ours always comes on after having driven not-pavement. Usually mellow gravel, sometimes mellow 2-track, extremely rarely do we venture onto anything truly steep or rough. Just dirt. When my wife first pointed out, half jokingly, that the van "doesn't like dirt roads" I brushed it off as overly simplistic. But with the benefit of a year+ and 25k miles since she first uttered it, it has been proven out repeatedly. When they happen, CEL and P2872 always pop up the next start after having driven not-pavement.
 
#56 ·
What's your freeze frame report read. It will give you what time after engine start that the malfunction was detected with a whole list of other reads at that time. The freeze frame is in a loop record it stays until you have a new CEL and will be overwritten by the new CEL.
 
#58 ·
Until yesterday this persistent CEL and code were a minor niggle, something to be endured while FCA dry-humps themselves trying to figure it out.

Yesterday we got stranded. Van wouldn't shift out of neutral. The ever-present P2872 was there, of course, but there was also a P1731 "incorrect gear engaged". I could move the lever out of N into R or D or M, but it wouldn't shift out of N, and I'd get a screen crawl that said something like "gear unavailable".

We were deep in the mountains near Durango, CO. Lacking any other option, we left the van and went for a bike ride. When we came back hours later, it would go into R and D and M. In D, it wouldn't shift out of 1st. In M, when trying to manually shift from 1 to 2, it again said "gear unavailable" and wouldn't shift out of first.
 
#59 ·
Catching up with this: FCA has offered me a buyback, with terms that I'd agree to today. The catch? There are no '18 diesels available yet, not even to order.

So, because they need to keep me on the road until they can replace this van, the combined FCA engineering team decided to replace my flywheel, pressure plate, clutch slave cylinder, and a handful of associated hydraulics.

A few days after picking up the van I left for a 10-day ~2400 mile swing through ID, OR, CA, and NV. I was surprised that in the first ~1600 miles of this trip, including 100+ miles of rough, often steep dirt road, I didn't get a single CEL or P2872. None. Unprecedented, and that gave me a glimmer of hope that this most recent fix was "the one".

Nope. CEL, P2872, and P0571 on Saturday, and again (twice) yesterday.

Coming down the long grade off the San Rafael Swell last night. I got the SERVICE TRANSMISSION crawl on the dash. Also the flashing red exclamation point.

Near the bottom, where the road flattens out and you'd get back on the gas, I tried to do just that. No response from the accelerator. Gear indicator still read "D", but nothing happened -- not even an RPM increase -- when I pushed on the gas.

Tried shifting manually, and the gear indicator would change to "5" or "6", but still no response from accelerator, and no RPM increase.

Coasted to a turnout, manually selected "1", and it went in and worked normally.

But then the cruise control was no longer functioning. Pulled into the next turnout, shut the van off, turned it back on, and the cruise functioned fine from then on.

That's where we currently sit.
 
#60 ·
I finally had enough and agreed to a repurchase with FCA.

Paperwork is moving slowly, but each day there is a bit of progress. Still driving the van while waiting, still occasionally getting a CEL and P2872.

Knowing that I'd need a new van in about a month, I spent a few weeks searching and came across a 2015 PM 2500 136" diesel -- exactly the same as what I have -- in Indiana. Wife and I picked it up and drove it home on our way back from holiday travels.

I'm ~20 hours into ripping the conversion out of the old van and installing it into the new one. Probably 100 hours to go.

Fired the new one up this morning and got a CEL and -- wait for it -- P2872. Had to run some errands and after 3 or 4 starts the CEL went away.

Fired it up again this evening and again got a CEL and P2872.

Took it to dealer so that they could pull codes and verify. And they did -- it is emphatically P2872.

Not even worth repeating what the service writer said. Clueless.

Honestly can't believe this. Haven't even been paid off on the first lemon yet, and the second van has same symptoms.
 
#61 ·
FWIW, I think 5-6 (most or all) of the diesel owners on the site have seen P2872 (including me) and most of them have not had any major issues. I still have intermittent "clutch feathering" - I do not think it is clutch related as I can get on the accelerator and RPMs don't change - but no real problems. I would have them show you on the computer that all the firmware on your new rig is up-to-date.. if it isn't, have them update and then keep driving it to see if the code returns.

My point is that I don't think P2872 = transmission problems.
 
#62 ·
I concur. I have had that P2872 and no other symptoms about 4 times in 45,000 miles. All occurred under interesting circumstances. Once I was in a parking lot, started but forgot to release the E-brake. Once I realized what had happened and got going, no problem. Next restart P2872. Once I was backing up my driveway at night and used the clutch slip a bit much. No Problem. Next restart- P2872. Once it was cold, just below freezing and I backed around my drive to leave. No Problem. Next restart- P2872. The other I didn’t record. I think any time you try to move and the van doesn’t it is stored as a clutch stuck code because the PCM thinks it didn’t engage and move the van so something must be wrong when it isn’t. Then there are a few who have real issues.
 
#63 ·
RD and twick, I'm glad that the P2872 hasn't been more than a minor and infrequent nuisance to you. In the last few months on the buyback van, that code always came in tandem with actual symptoms that either interrupted our trip or outright stranded us.

Thus it is that seeing it happen twice in one day on the new van is a very real cause for concern. Perhaps the problems don't reside in the trans but that's just semantics.
 
#64 ·
Bump this thread.

I am taking my diesel van in for service on the 18th. I am planning to have the clutch bled as the least intrusive thing they can do to try and stop the P2872 codes I get once in a while. I still have no symptoms of clutch or transmission problems. I have been resetting the CEL when this code comes up as I hate to see the CEL on. Where are all of you in terms of knowing what is going on with this code? Am I wasting money to have it done? Any thoughts will be appreciated.
I have 49,000 miles and just under 3 years so a fluid change might be unnecessary quite yet. For those of you who have had this am I foolish to even bother?
I called the service people at my dealer who admitted they sold only a few diesels. The service writer has no clue and his first attempt to research this code got no useful results. I asked him to look into it further and call me back. I suggested he may need to get STAR help. If he does not find anything I am feeling they might do more harm than good? Am I off base here?
RD
 
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