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Clutch bleed?

27K views 63 replies 9 participants last post by  RDinNHandAZ 
#1 ·
Woke up to a CEL on Friday. Dropped it at dealer and they found a code that directed them to bleed the clutch master cylinder. I had no time that day and they said it could be safely driven without the bleed, so they cleared the code and sent me on my way.

It's at the dealer now, ostensibly being bled.

Just curious if this has happened to anyone else yet, and if it might be indicative of a larger problem?
 
#2 ·
I don’t think we have seen a clutch bleed done due to a code. I’d wait it out and see if anything else shows up or if the shifting shows abnormalities. There is no reason to think it is more than a poor initial fluid fill. I am hesitant to suggest possibilities as unjustified paranoia can be the result. Relax (if you can).
 
#6 ·
Roadtrip was smooth -- no CEL's or any other hiccups along the way. Roughly 1800 miles all-in. Got 27 mpg on a 550 mile-stretch of 55 and 65mph 2-laners through Idaho. Got 22.1 mpg on the ~400 mile 84mph stretch of I-84/I-15 heading back home.

Woke up the morning after getting home, turned the key and got a CEL. Drove straight to dealer because IME the CEL's I've seen typically go away after one more cycle of the ignition. Dealer pulled code P2872: Clutch stuck engaged.

It was Saturday and they had a skeleton crew there, so I'm dropping it back off in the AM for the day.
 
#7 ·
Since you drove it to the dealer it WAS NOT stuck engaged or you wouldn’t have gotten there. However the code is there due to some sensor reporting such an error. Thanks for reporting back.
 
#8 ·
Dealer suspected an electrical connection was bad somewhere, but can't find anything. STAR wanted them to keep it overnight, in hopes that the CEL might happen again for them in the AM. Told them thanks but no thanks -- if it happens in the AM I can just drive it down to them right then and there -- with the CEL still illuminated on the dash. That has happened many times already and each time I *have* done that they've been able to find nothing. Most often they can't even pull a code.

My only contribution (other than frustration) has been to explain to the dealer that I have a very steep driveway, and the CEL almost always appears first thing in the AM after being parked on that steep grade all night. I've never actually gotten the CEL when driving -- only after a startup. A few of these have been when out boondocking, after creeping up or down a steep grade to get into or out of camp. Thus I asked if it was possible that there was an air bubble trapped in the clutch somewhere, that is migrating elsewhere when the van is inclined steeply. Service writer had no real idea, and I didn't get to talk to a tech.

All I've got. Open to other ideas.
 
#9 ·
Aha! it’s the sensor in the clutch fluid reservoir sensing low fluid! (it’s a guess!) Can you super top it up- say a bit over full? That might be worth a try.
 
#10 ·
Wouldn't the code then say something about fluid level, instead of 'stuck engaged'?

And, to be clear, this happens maybe once every ~3 weeks, not every morning. Just thinking that it would trigger whatever sensor more often since it's consistently parked in exactly the same spot.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I’m guessing the tilt has something to do with a sensor and there is little else to invent here. I was guessing and suggesting a non-destructive possible solution that may have no effect but might lead to the code not setting. You are right low fluid should not trigger THAT symptom code. Either top it up a bit or don’t. Code P2872 is a generic code, I’d have confidence it is related to the clutch BUT perhaps not to that specific symptom. Really, what have you got to loose? BTW the fact it sets the code only when having set a bit also suggests air in the line or on an immersed sensor that is why they bled it. Just try’n

I just looked it up and now I want to confirm that the service people at your dealer said “Clutch stuck engaged” as that code is used by other manufacturers to sense voltage in the TPS circuit! That would be very different. I don't have the specific Fiat/Ram code source but they do. If the tech. just read out the code and looked it up on the internet you are probably not getting the correct symptom.
 
#12 ·
Your musings and elucidations are much appreciated. My questioning wasn't intended to come off as argumentative -- I just wanted to continue the discussion.

Dealer couldn't translate that code into anything meaningful -- I googled it on my phone while they groped each other.
 
#13 ·
Yes I suspected that they didn’t/couldn’t find a specific FCA symptom for that code. They are going to have to investigate with whatever Ram has for tech. genius higher up. Don’t be surprised if next time they wiggle the wire at the TPS sensor! I’m stumped. Best to you and keep us informed.
 
#16 ·
I want to give my dealer the benefit of the doubt -- in that they both have a clue and give a **** -- but they keep giving me reasons to doubt them.

I had to be out of town last Weds AM thru Sunday PM. Perfect time to give it to them for in-depth digging for this problem. Dropped it off on Weds AM early. First red flag was that my "normal" service writer wasn't there. Thus I had to go back and explain the history of this problem to the guy that I did get. They take notes and keep them in the computer, but they are brief, and vague, and you could read them from many different perspectives.

After 10+ minutes of explaining to him what is happening, he said he understood, then asked two questions, back to back, that told me he not only didn't understand but probably wasn't even listening to me. Needing to get to the airport *now* I didn't have time to start over. I reiterated the basics, got confirmation that he understood, then as I was leaving I told him for at least the 3rd time that I'd be in at 7:30 on Monday morning to pick it up.

I had a voice mail from him on Thursday afternoon telling me that they couldn't find anything, and that it was ready for pickup. When I did pick it up, on Monday morning as promised, he said they weren't even able to find a code in the system.

The next nearest dealer is over an hour away, and of unknown value. With the local dealer, I can leave the van and ride my bike home in 10 minutes. I'd like to keep it local, but how do I get through to these people and get them to give a **** about what I'm telling them?
 
#17 ·
P2872-clutch 1 stuck engaged

P2872-CLUTCH 1 STUCK ENGAGED
Here's most of what they check and is sent to the cloud so every tech knows. I don't no what order they check but that is dependent on the previous check being a yes or no.
Run a scan and save the report in the files for future use.
Check the vehicle repair history.
Check transmission fluid level. The only way to check M40MTA level is to drain and refill with the correct amount.
Check clutch position sensor operation.
Check clutch solenoid valve operation.
Inspect clutch components.
Check wiring and connectors.
Check for aftermarket electronics that may be bundled with or near wiring harness that may cause EMI of the circuit.
 
#18 ·
Thanks KWB,
I am beginning to doubt that generic code is used by FCA for the Clutch and here is why. None of the few of us who have gotten the P2872 code have reported any clutch or shifting symptoms, the code is generated once on startup or soon after, it happens at odd times not consistently, and there are internet references to that code being used for other sensors like the TPS although that has its own codes. I am guessing that as a generic code it was adopted by FCA for some sensor we have that is not common or not on the normal ODB2 code list (fluid level?). Have you or anyone heard that the Ram tech has searched FCA for the code as it seems to me they are searching the same internet we are. If so, we may all be misdirected? Or perhaps you can think what the clutch might be doing? I am at a loss so I am creating here. I also am trying to decide if there is anything I can do to investigate further if it repeats on my van. What do you (all) think?
 
#19 ·
I am beginning to doubt that generic code is used by FCA for the Clutch and here is why. None of the few of us who have gotten the P2872 code have reported any clutch or shifting symptoms,
I believe I am starting to feel a clutch issue. Immediately after it shifts the clutch doesn't completely disengage -- think pressing your foot lightly on the pedal of a modern manual trans car -- then after a second or two, it releases, and there is a subtle but noticeable increase in acceleration as this happens.

I am, admittedly, princess and the pea incarnate, and can detect (and want to fix) minute issues that others neither notice nor care about. I spent time explaining this issue -- how and when to feel it -- to the service writer last wednesday. When I picked the van up he gave the standard "unable to duplicate" response. I felt it again, immediately, when I drove off the lot.
 
#20 ·
Not guessing them the facts.

P2872-clutch 1 stuck engaged
This is how FCA lists this code for the promaster diesel. The checks I listed are correct but not to full context of the check. Disconnect the battery before you start messing with things. I would check all connections unplug and re-plug as the only thing that can be done without the starr scan tool and proper ohm readouts. There's a wire bundle, in front of the fuel filter, that contains trans wires the big connector and the little one. There is a sensor under the hydraulic reservoir good luck with that one. Check the reverse switch on the side of the trans sorry no pics. That's all I know for now.
https://goo.gl/photos/88mtden6M11oVWsVA
Oh if you drain the hydraulic fluid reservoir there is a procedure that needs to be followed and the trans may need to be retrained.
 
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#24 ·
Wanted to add one other symptom that my PM has been exhibiting all summer, but that I'd forgotten about until it did it again this morning.

We usually boondock: camp out on public land, no hookups, no neighbors, no noise. That often means following some derelict doubletrack through the woods or the cactus until we feel that we're far enough from the noise of a road to sleep soundly. We do this ~3 weekends a month.

Sometimes these tracks are steep, or at least briefly get steep. I'm emphatically not interested in rock crawling or worrying about dragging anything in the undercarriage on the ground -- so if the road gets rough like that I backtrack. But sometimes, like last night, the track is steep enough that 1st gear is required. We creep slowly up, taking our time, never spinning the tires, easing our way to a level, quiet spot with a view.

Once there we'll park, shut down the engine, and then proceed to make dinner and get ready for bed.

Why belabor this point?

Because it is *always* this scenario -- a steep creeper of a hill -- that has me waking the next morning to a CEL. Always, 100% of the time.

The symptom I referred to above happens when we're creeping back down that hill the next morning. I'll be in 1st gear, (shift lever in M mode, manually selected 1st gear) idling my way down, using the engine compression to do as much of the braking as possible, only touching the brake pedal when there's a big dip, or hole, or ledge (or similar) approaching that I don't want to hit with too much speed. And sometimes the clutch will simply 'let go' -- effectively going into neutral -- and the engine is no longer doing any of the braking, while the van rapidly accelerates. Feels like free falling when the clutch lets go. My foot is hovering over the brake pedal so we never gain appreciable speed before I catch it and slow it back down. But that's not the point -- the point is that the clutch is letting go to begin with.

Am I wrong to expect the clutch to 'hold' us as we creep down hills like this?

Taking the van in to have them drop the trans in the AM, so that they can inspect the clutch. Just want an idea of how much emphasis I should place on this 'symptom'.

Thanks for your opinions and collective wisdom.
 
#25 ·
I’d definitely mention it as it is a possible clutch issue. I find the AMT will do some shifting even in M in situations that the transmission holding a gear might push the engine to excessive speed and downshift when there is no possibility of accelerating form the RPMs Both happen when slow hill work is involved and if you don’t go into M then the computer seems to have no idea what gear is appropriate. It may be your van is shifting up to avoid engine over rev and you catch it with the brake before 2nd is engaged. Has the EVIC shown a 2nd gear? I use the brakes as I am a good judge of how much they can do without fading or overheating and brake pads are way cheaper than transmissions and engines. I never liked the engine working backwards but I am an old codger who is not coming into the new world of autos without kicking and screaming. BTW I too Coyote camp but unlike my 4X4 F150/popup camper I don’t plan to put desert pinstripes all over this one!
 
#26 ·
We do the same thing a lot. Definitely have to use M mode in these situations as D even with tow haul on won't know which gear to use and will stress the clutch. The only time I have felt the promaster "let go" on downhill is if it upshifts. I have experienced a similar thing to what you are describing with turbocharged gas vehicles though when the RPMs are high enough to get into the boost, it will feel like a little acceleration bump.
 
#27 ·
Mine doesn't make it to "high" revs when I do this -- I'd guess ~1200 or so, max. Walking speed, no more. It's not the rev's that determine when it "lets go", it's the pitch. Beyond a certain grade the clutch can't hold the van and just defaults to neutral.
 
#28 ·
Mike,
Definitely discuss this and try to find out if it is “normal” to let go" into neutral when the torque is high and the gear is low. I can’t see how we can guess and with your other symptoms it may be some odd combination. I have not had the "let go" occur so I guess I haven’t pushed as far as you have but I am sure to sometime as your scenario is so familiar to us. Others have been on steep and slow roads and no one is chiming in here so it may be you are it. The CEL after the climb is probably a clue but I am at a loss to understand what might be going on. Sorry to not be more help.
 
#29 ·
Got my van back today.

When they tested the system they learned that the 'input speed sensor has speed at start up, and should not, recommend inspect clutch and release bearing.'

In the notes where the work was done, they wrote, "removed trans inspect clutch all ok replaced slave cyl and test drive shifts good at this time'.

Also: "installed actuator: hydraulic clutch r" and "installed fluid: brake" and "front wheel alignment, adjusted caster camber and toe".


It was clear from the other notes that the tech didn't understand the "letting go" symptom I described, as his (her?) solution was to tell me (in writing) that I have to manually shift down into first if I want it to stay in first, and that if I creep down hills in D then it's going to shift. Yeah, duh.

Will report back (or, hopefully, not) if I get another CEL and same code.
 
#30 ·
Made it two days before the next CEL. In that time I installed a Blue Driver sensor in the OBD port and the accompanying app on my phone, so that I didn't need the dealer to tell me that P2872 was back.

Lasted 3 starts and then went away. A day later it was back. Lasted 2 starts and then went away. "Feathering" of shifts has returned. Haven't been out on anything steep to know if it still 'lets go' when creeping downhill.

Any ideas on chasing this down appreciated/considered. Dealer and STAR are currently without ideas.
 
#31 ·
The more this goes on the more I suspect it is the ECU for the engine/transmission. It normally controls the throttle, clutch, and shift when the automatic programming or manual selection dictates it. If the clutch was fine then it’s inability to grip and hold must (may) be influenced by the computer holding the clutch partially open as it would for a shift to avoid a sudden lurch and stress on the drivetrain. The suspicion that the actuator was faulty in some way or the hydraulic system holding open the clutch has been addressed by changing both the actuator and slave cylinder, which is what I would have wanted done if it were my van. I am seeing little else that might be causing this other than programming or some spurious fault detection. Kudos to your dealer and techs for what they have done to find this and for seeing the alignment was needed. Since they didn’t cure it with mechanical service it’s leaving little else. I’d push for an FCA referral for this code and your feathering and expect a flash update for it. Others smarter than me might see other explanations.
 
#32 ·
The alignment was needed because they had to drop the front subframe to drop the trans.

My experience is levels more shallow than yours, but I keep thinking this has to be ECU as well.

Dropping it @ dealer on Weds AM, will report back when I have something worth sharing.
 
#33 ·
Dropped it at dealer yesterday AM. Nothing was achieved there -- they don't know what else to do. I think it literally sat there untouched all day and overnight.

This AM "a conference call was had between Fiat engineers, Chrysler Corporate, and a few techs" (<- that's what the service writer told me, anyway). The end result of which is that they want to "keep it for a few days to run some more tests".

Could just be the way she shared the message, but I felt very little in the way of confidence that they have any idea which direction to go from here. Really, really hoping I'm wrong on that.
 
#34 ·
Got it back today. Service writer told me they'd bled the clutch (3rd time) and that was it. Got to talk to the actual tech and he said that Star was convinced he hadn't bled it right last time, because replacing the slave and actuator *should* have fixed it, "if it had been bled right".

I asked him if he had confidence that the bleed would indeed fix it, given that it's already been bled thrice without success. He copped out and said "All I can do is what Star tells me to".

Heading out to the desert for the weekend. Which *usually* results in a CEL come Monday morning. At this point I welcome it -- better to deal with this now when I don't plan to stray far from home, than next summer when I want to be out for ~weeks at a time.

Is this really happening to no one else, in ~3 years of diesel PM production?
 
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